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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN on: February 01, 2012, 06:14:12 PM
Beardog


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« on: February 01, 2012, 06:14:12 PM »

I am taking the initiative of dubbing an addition to this fine forum to be known as the Triple Bikepacking Crown. Simple idea but not so simple for those willing to join me on the challenge - Ride all three US-CA epic bikepacking routes in one summer on one bike with no help. That is - pick your bike and register it on the blog or here and ride to completion solo the AZT 750 starting 4/13, TDR starting 6/8 and finally the CTR on 7/30. I have set up a basic blog for those who want to partake or just talk about it or you can do it here. The blogspot is triplebikepackingcrown.blogspot.com. There will of course be no entry fee, no prizes, no T shirts and above all NO WHINNING! You do get you name on the blog with your times as you get an official SPOT finish on each race and an overall time champ (girl and boy divisions and if enough maybe an old guy or gal for those of us over 50).

I will start the ball rolling here--- I will be riding my old reliable karate monkey redone with a new reba SL and XTR 3x10 drive train for all three races. Anyone care to join me?/

David G
Ft Collins, CO
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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 01:12:42 PM
ImAFred

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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 01:12:42 PM »

ummmm WOW! .....hardcore is a word that comes to mind
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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 12:42:41 AM
et3surge


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« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 12:42:41 AM »

trying similar but not quite this year, Stagecoach, Dirty Kanza, CTR
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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN Reply #3 on: February 05, 2012, 12:31:33 PM
ScottM
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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2012, 12:31:33 PM »

Glad to see you get this posted.  These are the three biggest dirt bikepacking events and to do them all in one season is quite ambitious.

I don't see the need to do them all on one bike, but if you do, more power to you, I guess.  Smiley

Other takers?
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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN Reply #4 on: February 06, 2012, 02:05:29 PM
mikepro


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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2012, 02:05:29 PM »

This is definitely my idea of a worthy cause to devote one's time to, as well as my idea for a helluva lotuva fun !!   It's on the radar, just not this year.  Seems like another category that could go in the Ultra Records section of this forum.  That would be sweet.  Then Dave will be today's rabbit for tomorrow's greyhounds to chase.  Set the standard, Dave.  headbang

Just to be clear, we're talkin' calendar-year 3x Crown here, not a consecutive or "career" 3x Crown.  This ain't Grand Slam tennis. icon_biggrin  One can't do a CTR this year, then follow up with next year's AZT and TDR.  That'd be too easy.  icon_biggrin
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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN Reply #5 on: February 06, 2012, 07:43:40 PM
Beardog


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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2012, 07:43:40 PM »

nope-this is a one season one ride deal like the grand slam of ultrarunning, rocky mountain slam and all the rest--this is the ultracycling mtb slam--it is also to promote the trail orgs that make this possible so others will join, donate and get out there and do trail work-when I lived in Flag the only people who came out to work on the dry lake trails were those of us who rode and ran them-so if you are doing one of these epics and are nearby it is always good to chip in a day or two of trail work-
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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN Reply #6 on: February 07, 2012, 06:20:10 AM
AZTtripper
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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2012, 06:20:10 AM »

That's one hell of a game plan.

You'll be glad to hear that local Flag riders helped build a lot of the AZT reroute around the Wilderness up that way.

In general tho hikers are kicking our asses on building the AZT. In my mid 40's and often I am the youngest person showing up for trail work.

Things are getting better down here in Tucson tho. The local club SDMB played a role in building our section of the AZT and several members are getting active with trail maintenance.

Tim
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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN Reply #7 on: February 14, 2012, 10:33:44 PM
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« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2012, 10:33:44 PM »

I like the general idea.  Even tried to do something similar back in '03 and '04 with back-to-back-to-back KTR/GLR/GDR attempts.

Never got 'em done in the same year--just stacked too close together for recovery, I guess.

But my main reason for chiming in was to point out your omission of the hardest, longest running, baddest of the bad 'bikepacking' race--the Iditarod Trail Invitational.

My $.02 is that no one can be crowned anything without having finished that one (in the same year--per your rules) first.

And on the same bike?  OK...

Cheers,

MC
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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN Reply #8 on: February 15, 2012, 05:10:35 AM
mmeiser

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« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2012, 05:10:35 AM »

Love the idea because it supports and promotes events that are very much worthy institutions in themselves. What's more I think some will pursue it.

My initial reaction was the same as MikeC's. The iditarod is missing and it is of course a bikepacking race.  Why not proceed with your quadrupal crown idea though and also define and leave the door open for a quadrupal crown?   Or why not encourage people to define their own triple crown from a list of unsupported races?

Finally is this about bikepacking or would it better be defined as unsupported racing?  I think bikepacking is to narrow a definition. Indeed many of the races talked about on this very site are technically not bikepacking as they don't span more then one or two days... i.e. dirty kanza, transiowa. The thing that defines them is they are all unsupported races.

The other thing that popped into my head was Jay Petervary's amazing triple race attempt last year. Iditarod, TDR and RAAM. While absolutely amazing, epic and mind blowing. (His full 1100 mile iditarod race blew my mind.)  I think the problem was his final choice for a race, the RAAM is not an unsupported race. It's supporters official and unofficial didn't seem interested in or pick up on Jay so he didn't get the P.R. and support I really thought he needed and deserved.  He was really out there solo on that event.  Indeed the route also did not look to bikepacking friendly.

While I love the idea of RAAM I think I'd love more a bikepacking specific route across the U.S.   I even like the idea of an unsupported pavement specific style race, but I think doing a long road style unsupported race really requires very careful road/route consideration as sleep deprivation and high traffic paved roads don't mix. I could be wrong about the RAAM route though. Only Jay really knows and I haven't seen any proposals nor interest in another E-W route... perhaps it's is because there is a component of the unsupported scene that does seek out remote and wild routes and that's very hard to do if not following continuous wild corridors.

Saftey. I think this is why most of the big bikepacking / unsupported style races stick to dirt. Simply saftey. Deaths on the RAAM route have warped it into a bureaucratic and expensive endevour. Exactly why I love bikepacking. It's open and accessible for people with the skill without the resources to cobble together a four man team and all the associated costs. I'm not saying it's not risky. But the death that happened on the divide did not cause a moral crisis because unsupported has not pitted itself against the endless onslaught of cars. Weather conscious or unconscious unsupported racing has sought steered it's sights and challenges away from such dangers toward terrain where sleep deprivation can be more safely challenged.

So, looking at Jay's attempt. In retrospect I really wish his third challenge would have a crazy epic third bikepacking event. I think the amount of P.R. he got out of the RAAM was minimal because it crossed into another style of racing that ironically didn't wholey support him. If his event would have stayed unsupported racing specific it would have helped define what he was doing better, brought more attention to unsupported racing and Jay himself would have gotten more support and p.r. out of what truely was the most epic and amazing triple crowns I've ever seen and maybe every will. (Unless MikeC and some other capable souls of this style of racing come up with their own epic triple crowns.. . hint hint. Smiley

So... that said.   One last thought.   


What is your triple crown??


You could leave it open to the participant to define their own triple crown. i.e. define a list of acceptable bikepacking races and some ground rules like obeying the official rules of those races, perhaps requiring spot tracking / perhaps not...  and then let the participant pick any three.

Simply pose the question and let it guide you.  "What's your triple crown?"

I imagine a "classic" triple crown would evolve. And maybe the three races you picked would be that but in the meantime you'd get much more interest in the idea. Much more P.R. value for the triple crown idea and the unsupported races themselves.

Capture people's imagination. Challenge them to dream up challenges that will then further inspire others.

Light the fire so to speak.

I guess.. I being an information architectural / tech geek I think in terms of spawning meme's... ideas that can go viral... and stear away from defining finite events that might limit creative participation as much as they encourage it.

Indeed I already see evidence in this thread... that if you started a new thread called. "What's your triple crown" and redefined this challenge as suggested that that thread would pretty much explode. You would then really take the pulse of this community and really spur people to ride a thousand triple crown races each in it's own way capturing one of the beautiful individualistic facets I love so much about bikepacking. This would then further inspire the next generation to dream up and attempt crazier and even more creative feats... and then if we're lucky in three years time people will be accomplishing triple crowns that not only had we never thought of, but that blow our minds.

Also... there's fundamentally no single winner with my idea... instead everyone wins. Wink

Did I mention that I love unssupported racing because it's truely not about who's #1?   Indeed I like to call it "un-racing" because as I put it "I don't race, I just happen to like to ride fast and far."

I could see people proposing a triple crown east.

A triple crown midwest gravel grinders, i.e. dirty kanza, transiowa, etc.   

I could see people proposing a triple crown of snow racing.

Best of all I'd just be shocked and delighted to see what people come up with and then have the pleasure of seeing them execute their own triple crowns.

Like commenter @et3surge's personal Stagecoach, Dirty Kanza, CTR triple crown mentioned above the DIY / low barrier to entry / anti-beauracratic thing is sort of the heart of the beast here.

I want to follow up and see how that goes for him.

Indeed I want to read about and follow other people's own triple crowns.

In summary, I think I might start that thread with or without you, but of course... I'm hoping a little you'll transmorph your idea, open it up and perhaps use the blog you created to eventually document and support others triple crowns as well.  Perhaps I and a few others might be able to help you do that.

It would definitely add even more meaning and dimension to this thing we all love so much.

Untill then I'll be dreaming of someone doing a triple crown of the Americas (N-S).  Euro-Africa (N-S) and Euro Asia (E-W).  Or how about a Triple crown Antartica, Iditarod, Greenland... or a triple crown of island nations: greenland, Australia, UK.   Or a triple crown Trans Iowa, Trans Michigan, Trans Ohio (those last two don't exist.... yet Smiley

Or a triple crown Tour Divide West, Tour Divide East, Tour Divide... Europe? South America?

Indeed I think I might be up for a triple crown East. TNGA, Allegheney Loop tour and perhaps one other event this year.

Anyone know of any other good unsupported races in the midwest or East?
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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN Reply #9 on: February 15, 2012, 06:15:33 AM
Beardog


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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2012, 06:15:33 AM »

WOW! I am totally up for as many triple crowns as we can come up with and then post up here and elsewhere. This is just the FIRST selfsupported triple of the classic three MTB western rides (I just happen to live in Colorado and love all these routes) I agree with your thoughts. The problem with adding the Iditerod (at least for me) is there is a strict cap (like so many ORGANIZED ultras now) on racer numbers and check points, time outs, drop bags, etc. It is not in the strict sense SELF supported but clearly a brutal race just to finish (let alone win - last year's race obviously proved that with Aidan and Jay's races). Your thoughts on RAAM are right on given its hyper organization, rules, entry fees, etc. That is why I did not consider including it here but on my list to ride as well but self supported on a SPOT rather than with a vann full of people, time stations, thousands of dollars in feesn and expenses, etc. My only criteria for this idea was I love all of these rides and they are all multiday self supported and on trails and dirt roads off the grid. So if you want to come up with more - post them up and we can start informal records, etc. Self supported ultrabiking can learn (I hope) from ultrarunning which I did for many years and started similarly with grassroots off the grid races and evolved into the mega business it is now where even some of the best runners cannot get on even the wait list for runs like Hardrock, Western States and Wasatch. On the one hand the boom is great for the sport, on the other it took much of the solitude and self challenge out of the sport and many use it now to make a living and fuel their own running addiction. For me the allure of all of this is the same as it was before the ultrarunning boom - being out there for as long as possible on the trails in the wild without people on your own - SELF SUPPORTED.
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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN Reply #10 on: February 15, 2012, 06:46:42 AM
MikeC


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« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2012, 06:46:42 AM »

The problem with adding the Iditerod (at least for me) is there is a strict cap (like so many ORGANIZED ultras now) on racer numbers and check points, time outs, drop bags, etc. It is not in the strict sense SELF supported

I think with a little digging you might find that the ITI is far, far more of a self-supported race than anything else out there.  The drops make it different (and they aren't required--you could always forego them) but the remoteness and lack of services on the course impose a far greater 'strictness' than anything else happening right now.  On the ITI you won't be stepping into a 7-11 for a Gatorade or a Don Juan, flagging down a passing truck for directions or water, or pushing 'help" on your Spot.
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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN Reply #11 on: February 15, 2012, 08:34:18 AM
Beardog


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« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2012, 08:34:18 AM »

You are of course right about the lack of any real support on the Iditerod--there is I believe a fee however for racing in it to cover rescue costs, etc. Right? It is still definitely one of the toughest races to finish in the world no doubt and a bit different then the rest given the elements you have to deal with in Alaska in February and perhaps in a league of its own?
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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN Reply #12 on: February 15, 2012, 10:19:34 AM
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« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2012, 10:19:34 AM »

Didn't Mark Caminiti ride the CTR, AZT 750, and Coconino in one season in 2010? If he did, I think that he deserves credit for technically completing the "First" Triple Bikepacking Crown. But replacing the Coconino with the TD certainly raises the stakes! I'm looking forward to watching your progress, David!
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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN Reply #13 on: February 15, 2012, 10:57:37 AM
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« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2012, 10:57:37 AM »

Didn't Mark Caminiti ride the CTR, AZT 750, and Coconino in one season in 2010? If he did, I think that he deserves credit for technically completing the "First" Triple Bikepacking Crown. But replacing the Coconino with the TD certainly raises the stakes! I'm looking forward to watching your progress, David!


No I only rode the AZT 300 and 750 and CTR, so that was my 'kinda' triple. And I was not fast at any of them.
I had a blast in 2010, and this year I am hoping for the exact same thing plus Coconino, which looks fun.
I think the triple should be any 3 races u want on any bike. Even cool ITT's should count.
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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN Reply #14 on: February 15, 2012, 11:39:51 AM
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« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2012, 11:39:51 AM »

No I only rode the AZT 300 and 750 and CTR, so that was my 'kinda' triple. And I was not fast at any of them.
I had a blast in 2010, and this year I am hoping for the exact same thing plus Coconino, which looks fun.
I think the triple should be any 3 races u want on any bike. Even cool ITT's should count.
Using "only" as a qualifier is a little too self-deprecating, Mark. Riding the AZT 750 and CTR in the same year is freaking amazing--and it doesn't matter how "slowly" you ride! You might not be the fastest guy on the trail, you've got a lot of heart.

I'm looking forward to watching people hit more and more races in one season. Thanks for the inspiration!
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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN Reply #15 on: February 15, 2012, 12:25:01 PM
sean salach


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« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2012, 12:25:01 PM »

You are of course right about the lack of any real support on the Iditerod--there is I believe a fee however for racing in it to cover rescue costs, etc. Right? It is still definitely one of the toughest races to finish in the world no doubt and a bit different then the rest given the elements you have to deal with in Alaska in February and perhaps in a league of its own?

The race itself has a fee, but people have done it on their own without the support of the race before. Not that I would encourage that without doing it a few times within the race first, as it's fairly unforgiving conditions if you don't know what you're doing. Curiak even did it completely self sustained, without any drops or purchaces along the way, all the way to Nome.

That's not to take away from what you're trying to accomplish though. I'll be watching with interest. 

Also worth mentioning, is Pete Basinger in '10 racing the Arrowhead135, Su100, ITI350 and White Mountains100 all within the span of 2.5 months, and winning or coming in 2nd in all of them.
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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN Reply #16 on: February 15, 2012, 10:38:36 PM
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« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2012, 10:38:36 PM »

On the ITI you won't be stepping into a 7-11 for a Gatorade or a Don Juan, flagging down a passing truck for directions or water, or pushing 'help" on your Spot.

A good point, but one sullied by misinformation.  It's Don Miguel, not Don Juan!  Which makes me question whether you completed the Coco loop, or just photo doctored that awesome video together.

Adding ITI into the year would make for an impressive 4-pack, but in my mind anyway, it's just a different beast.  Goldberg's triple crown puts together the longest, hardest and most similar bikepacking races -- the three that make the most sense (?!) to put together into an ultima year.  There's a pretty close cohesion in the rules, ethos, entry, etc, among TD/AZT/CTR.

What Pete is doing sounds like a good crown for the winter bikepacking events.  He just needs to go to Nome...
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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN Reply #17 on: February 16, 2012, 05:19:03 AM
mmeiser

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« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2012, 05:19:03 AM »

glad
Also worth mentioning, is Pete Basinger in '10 racing the Arrowhead135, Su100, ITI350 and White Mountains100 all within the span of 2.5 months, and winning or coming in 2nd in all of them.

That's what I'm talking about, a quadrupal crown of snowbiking. How did I miss that, and where can I read up on it?   Wish everyone shot such great videos as MikeC of their exploits.

Reminds me, here in the midwest we have a great series of 100's.  The lumberjack 100, the Mohican 100 and the new Chemoigan(sp?) 100 in Wisconsin.  That's a nice triple crown as well, though not self supported.

Pleased to see where this thread is going. We should see where it goes a little longer and then perhaps start a new thread. "What's your triple crown?" that's sure to bring in another level of comments on stuff people have already done or have been dreaming about.
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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN Reply #18 on: February 16, 2012, 05:48:00 AM
mmeiser

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« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2012, 05:48:00 AM »

Self supported ultrabiking can learn (I hope) from ultrarunning which I did for many years and started similarly with grassroots off the grid races and evolved into the mega business it is now where even some of the best runners cannot get on even the wait list for runs like Hardrock, Western States and Wasatch. On the one hand the boom is great for the sport, on the other it took much of the solitude and self challenge out of the sport and many use it now to make a living and fuel their own running addiction. For me the allure of all of this is the same as it was before the ultrarunning boom - being out there for as long as possible on the trails in the wild without people on your own - SELF SUPPORTED.

You know there's a spirit thing here. It's a clash of the inevitable... like manifest destiny / western expansion.  It's like being in the curl of a really great wave. You know it's going to break and break big. It can't stay this perfect for ever. You know what comes after the break and that's great... it'll be great for everyone. It's got a great payoff, a great future... for everyone.... and yet... you know that right now it's golden. For you it'll never be this good ever again. You want it to progress, it must.  You look forward to it. But you just want to hang in that before time as much as possible. to hang it quiet solitude, to turn every pedal stroke you can, ride every mile you can, to relish everything about it.

There's this highly social aspect of it right here, and yet when you're in the act it's a complete loner sport 99.9% of the time. It just makes it all that much more amazing when you do have the rare opportunity to ride with others. And those opportunities to ride with others are just going to increase with the sport's popularity.

For me the down side is it'll get a little more beuracratic, a little more expensive and a lot more competitively oriented as it gets more popular. I look at something like the TransIowa which I love, but with a 75 rider cap it's just impossible to get in consistently anymore. I haven't entered as much because I don't want to bump another off the list vs. simple logistics of going all the way to iowa for a single race. I'm totally not sure why it couldn't be open to all combers except for the minor logistical issue of printing the turn by turn route info.

I don't know really anything about ultrarunning... well more then 99.9999% of people without exageration. I've been following it for years, but at the same time I don't run. I just love endurance in general. The same as I look to UL backpackers for inspiration on gear ethos I look to ultrarunners on endurance ethos I can apply to biking.

To me something like the badwater 100 seems unfathomable, and yet there are some mythical legends that have done ultraruns for 3-4 days. My knees and ankles would give out in the first 10 miles.
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  Topic Name: THE FIRST TRIPLE BIKEPACKING CROWN Reply #19 on: February 16, 2012, 08:23:52 AM
sean salach


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« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2012, 08:23:52 AM »

The more I think about it, the more I think that the ultimate bikepacking triple crown would be ITI to Nome, full GDR and Canning Stock Route all in the same year. All over 1000 miles, 1 mountains, cold, snow and ice; 1 high mountains spanning a range of intermediate climates; and 1 desert. It would call up nearly all of the skills one might ever need to be a bikepacker, would cover nearly all of the weather conditions and nearly all of the climates. Maybe find a tropical, rainforest 1000+ miler where hurricanes and political unrest would add the rest of the necessary skills to make it a quadruple crown. South America? Asia? Central Africa?
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