TEAM self-supported racing! Whattaya think?

[DaveH]

To turn this around - if solo self-supported riding is the prime goal, why choose to start with 75 (or so) others instead of solo?  What do you gain from a group start?

Mark, the stuff you object to is cheating - but that is not what JeffOYB is talking about here.  We are talking about legitimate team classes.  It's not actually a new thing - they've existed (peacefully!) at my events since '08. 

I've always been a proponent of self-supported ITTs, but one of my favorite rides was doing the Kaibab 200 with Lynda.  We overestimated our abilities and cracked at 2am...forced bivvy with very little gear...made for some lasting memories!

[Done]

To turn this around - if solo self-supported riding is the prime goal, why choose to start with 75 (or so) others instead of solo?  What do you gain from a group start?

1. The same start date and time helps provide everyone with a level playing field, especially regarding weather.
2. There aren't enough days in the year for everyone to have their own racer-free ITT.
3. It's possible to encounter other riders, and even briefly ride with them, without sharing gear, food, tactics, drafting, etc.
4. It's a race. That means other having other riders to race against!
5. It fun to meet other racers, build friendships, etc. Again, this has been possible for me to do without sharing gear, tactics, etc.

But I'm really not opposed to teams--although I think that they should be open about it. For smaller races, mixing teams and individuals probably isn't a big deal either. But for the bigger ones, I don't think that it would hurt to have teams and individuals start on different days.

[DaveH]

It's the old conundrum - go self-supported yet there are so many good reasons to ride with others.  I was really just pointing out it's a thin line we walk between teams and solo in a mass start event.

Teams definitely need to be open about it - it's actually required at the Dixie's.  Teams must declare their intent at the start.  Otherwise everyone would be PO'd thinking they were solo riders.

All this aside, it has not proven to be a popular format.  We're a bunch of gregarious lone wolfs, go figure.

[Done]

It's the old conundrum - go self-supported yet there are so many good reasons to ride with others.  I was really just pointing out it's a thin line we walk between teams and solo in a mass start event.

Teams definitely need to be open about it - it's actually required at the Dixie's.  Teams must declare their intent at the start.  Otherwise everyone would be PO'd thinking they were solo riders.

All this aside, it has not proven to be a popular format.  We're a bunch of gregarious lone wolfs, go figure.

Agreed on all points, Dave. The line is truly pretty thin, and sometimes seemingly arbitrary. We are indeed, as you put so well, "gregarious lone wolfs."

[dream4est]

I think we owe it to the race organizers to self police the crap that goes on out there. If team classes eliminated cheating, then all race organizers should consider it.

I just dont think adding classes changes this "screw the rules" mentality we are seeing here. Remember a few years ago when people would self-relegate themselves? That takes the heavy responsibility/burden off the organizers' shoulders. Now its like catch me if you can fools. A few years ago it was guys like Jason and Owen who self-relegated themselves in the CTR after amazing runs with a 5-10 mile mistake. Now that same mistake gets you an asterix finish and no one questioning your credibility for not DQing/relegating yourself? We have really lost the vision of the sport IMO. Cheaters and rule benders are making race organizers soft on DQ's and such because newbies dont understand self-relegation and place too much burden on another person to make the call. I wouldnt want to DQ anyone. That would suck.

Dont think I am bitter or that I had a bad time this year because of what I saw. I had the time of my life. The positive interactions with the ppl out there was amazing and far outweighed any shenanigans out there. Riders like Tanner M, Dave K, NTCT Matt, Dave W, Scott M, Toby, Andy, Scott J, JC, Kurt S, Arno M, Goldberg and of course Marshal were a joy to hang with, chase, pass, get passed by, camp etc. I will remember that in the years to come and not some lame team crap.

[Done]

Remember a few years ago when people would self-relegate themselves? That takes the heavy responsibility/burden off the organizers' shoulders. Now its like catch me if you can fools. A few years ago it was guys like Jason and Owen who self-relegated themselves in the CTR after amazing runs with a 5-10 mile mistake. Now that same mistake gets you an asterix finish and no one questioning your credibility for not DQing/relegating yourself? We have really lost the vision of the sport IMO. Cheaters and rule benders are making race organizers soft on DQ's and such because newbies dont understand self-relegation and place too much burden on another person to make the call. I wouldnt want to DQ anyone. That would suck.

Damn, it feels good to hear this from someone else's mouth. I was drawn to this sport in large part because of the examples that you just gave. Strong people making tough decisions. Inspiring examples of people taking personal responsibility, while pushing the boundaries of what's possible!

[sherpaxc]

I have total respect for all that you have accomplished.  Believe me, in my opinion you have more than earned your voice.  But, geez..............you sound like a grumpy old man! 

I'm with Dave.  It's a fine line, but it is a line.  So many people beat their chest and say "SOLO is the only way to go!" yet like Dave pointed out, they are choosing to race it with 75 other of their closest friends. 

I don't have to much of a dog in this fight, but still, I do like the idea.  Hell, in some ways Kurt and Jay both have raced on a "team" in the biggest of big races.  YMMV

I think we owe it to the race organizers to self police the crap that goes on out there. If team classes eliminated cheating, then all race organizers should consider it.

I just dont think adding classes changes this "screw the rules" mentality we are seeing here. Remember a few years ago when people would self-relegate themselves? That takes the heavy responsibility/burden off the organizers' shoulders. Now its like catch me if you can fools. A few years ago it was guys like Jason and Owen who self-relegated themselves in the CTR after amazing runs with a 5-10 mile mistake. Now that same mistake gets you an asterix finish and no one questioning your credibility for not DQing/relegating yourself? We have really lost the vision of the sport IMO. Cheaters and rule benders are making race organizers soft on DQ's and such because newbies dont understand self-relegation and place too much burden on another person to make the call. I wouldnt want to DQ anyone. That would suck.

Dont think I am bitter or that I had a bad time this year because of what I saw. I had the time of my life. The positive interactions with the ppl out there was amazing and far outweighed any shenanigans out there. Riders like Tanner M, Dave K, NTCT Matt, Dave W, Scott M, Toby, Andy, Scott J, JC, Kurt S, Arno M, Goldberg and of course Marshal were a joy to hang with, chase, pass, get passed by, camp etc. I will remember that in the years to come and not some lame team crap.

[gdillon]

I originally posted on this thread because I really do think a team (of however many people) would be a different experience in a racing format, with potential advantages but mostly drawbacks. To get everyone across the finish line is a huge challenge. When I started an ITT of the ct last summer with two other friends, there was an agreement that the effort was individual and, barring any major problems, that we would separate from each other if that time came to do so. Which is exactly what happened.

When we talked about the possibility of riding together ahead of time, we found that there were some things that we could share, but overall everyone needed to be equally prepared for the effort. What if one person quit and the other person didn't have room for a stove, yet had 5,000 calories of food to cook? I guess you would have to work that out along with shelter and water filtration issues as well. In my experience, much of the team effort would have to do with motivation, keeping each other in the game. For this reason, going on a trip with friends sounds like more fun.

I'm posting again because it seems like the degree of sharing out there in these races has in some cases moved into this "team" realm. Having only participated on 2 race-type efforts, I haven't seen what folks are talking about, but I think it makes for a good discussion about intent. 

I second the comment about a separate starting date for the TTT.

[AZTtripper]

Seeing it typed this way TTT makes me think this will never fly.

Here's why. The ITT free race format is already nearing max capacity. You start opening these races up to teams and your looking at a permitted sanctioned race.

The logistics and all of the paper work that you would have to go thru would push you into pay a fee to ride category. I should think that something as big as TD would be a monster load of work to lay out. 

I will say that I don't really have a problem with guys deciding to ride together. But I don't like the sound of people planning to share gear. That just isn't following the spirit of the rules. I also didn't like hearing about coolers that's not cool and all. And I am not a fan of calling for pizza delivery, again it's the spirit of the thing. If your looking for short cuts your not ready.