Kokopelli's Trail Race?

[Done]

After the latest encouraging posts, I added a longer version of my thoughts on the KTR on my blog, http://tobygadd.blogspot.com

I'm looking for some feedback, be it positive or negative. I fully realize that I don't need it if I decide to pursue establishing a legitimate KTR--but I'm honestly on the fence about it. Part of me just wants to get out there and ride it without worrying about paperwork, bureaucracies, angry people, etc. But part of me wants to make it possible for people to race in the open, freely post times, etc.

As Dave Harris posted, "If making a legitimate event brings a similar experience to others well that's a good thing." But is it good enough to deal with the inevitable crap required to go legit?

Thanks for your thoughts!

Cheers,
Toby

[Roland Sturm]

I think it is an excellent idea to make events official that involve more than a dozen people - when it is feasible. Often it will not be feasible with too many organizations involved, but Kokopelli may be just one of those exceptions. Land management organizations are more likely than not to be supportive of activities that fit with their mission (I work with the National Park service on a different type of event), but are put on the defensive when large events take place without their knowledge. They do have to mediate between all type of land use.  Kokopelli is short and compact and large clumps of riders are hard to ignore (those clumps disappear after a few hundred miles and then there is no issue to begin with, but obviously is something that tourdivide struggles with for a day or two).

Making any event official takes some initiative, but whoever puts this work into it will do a great service to bikepacking and racing. If you do it, great. Not only would it bring a race back officially, but also sets a precedent of an event with support from BLM (or other agencies), create goodwill and contacts that may open up new trails and routes. Eventually, making these activities more accessible to more people, rather than limiting it to a few insiders, is good. A service to a broader community than just having fun with friends.

I've done my share of "underground" riding, racing trails created by military tanks in the forest with my friends (leading equipment failure then: broken front forks going down tank slides - equipment in the 1970s was not meant for that). Was fun and this type of underground racing among friends will always continue. They are not events that scale every well, though. So it would be good to have some official races that can scale without grief and collaborations with land management is important.

Although a rather different activity, there is a parallel to my other hobby, which is traditional acoustic music.  Much of that continues in the "underground", with the same limitations of that you see here, which is either a very narrow insider event (for jams, house concerts, etc.) or getting too big for its own good. But joining with the National Park Service allows us to have large regular concert series and festivals in national park sites (still all non-profit and much of it free). Great fun and everybody benefits. Sure, it does mean a lot of extra work dealing with bureaucracies, so extra work. But the pluses of a collaboration outweigh that work - especially when your event needs to have rules and regulations bent or even set aside (which occurs repeatedly every year).

[Marshal]

After the latest encouraging posts, I added a longer version of my thoughts on the KTR on my blog, http://tobygadd.blogspot.com

I'm looking for some feedback, be it positive or negative. I fully realize that I don't need it if I decide to pursue establishing a legitimate KTR--but I'm honestly on the fence about it. Part of me just wants to get out there and ride it without worrying about paperwork, bureaucracies, angry people, etc. But part of me wants to make it possible for people to race in the open, freely post times, etc.

As Dave Harris posted, "If making a legitimate event brings a similar experience to others well that's a good thing." But is it good enough to deal with the inevitable crap required to go legit?

Thanks for your thoughts!

Cheers,
Toby

Hi Toby, I have been trying to prod you a bit to look deep inside at your motives and desires and then either cut bait or fish.

Toby, why did you originally investigate what it would take to produce a sanctioned KTR?  To score talking points in a forum debate, or because you strongly desire to produce a sanctioned KTR?

I assume a bit of both but my assumptions are irrelevant.  If your desire is to produce a sanctioned KTR then I would encourage you to proceed.  But if you really need my or anyone else’s encouragement then I would humbly suggest you abstain.  

To produce a well run, annual/successful, “sanctioned” KTR, one that closely mirrors the original self-supported ethos will be a difficult undertaking.  I would humbly submit to you that the organizer of such a sanctioned KTR will need commitment, time, money and thick skin.  

If you are serious but question the support from the crowd that frequents this forum perhaps you might 1st get ‘official’ pre-approval’ of your SPECIFIC race plan .  Then bring this pre approved race plan to this forum for a market test/review.

Personally I think a sanctioned race that closely mimicked the informal KTR’s would be well received but that’s all hypothetical till someone actually gets formal pre-approval of a specific plan.


Toby, If you choose to accept this mission---this post will self destruct in----

[Done]

Hi Marshall. Long time to chat.

Toby, why did you originally investigate what it would take to produce a sanctioned KTR?  To score talking points in a forum debate, or because you strongly desire to produce a sanctioned KTR?

I am dismayed that you think that I am considering a legal KTR for any reasons other than I've stated. It's certainly not because I am out to "score talking points in a forum debate." That's actually a pretty insulting thing to imply, but I'll refrain from slagging you back. I think that it's probably pretty clear to most people that I LOVE this sport. And although I'm a relative newbie with only the CTR under my belt, I'm committed to additional races--and I am enjoying sharing my new passion with like-minded people.

I assume a bit of both but my assumptions are irrelevant.  If your desire is to produce a sanctioned KTR then I would encourage you to proceed.  But if you really need my or anyone else’s encouragement then I would humbly suggest you abstain.

Well, if you assume that your assumptions are irrelevant (which they are), than why keep piling them on? I'm can't figure out why you think that I should abstain from seeking encouragement. As you stated yourself, organizing a legal KTR will take a lot of time, effort, and money--and I'm trying to determine if it would be worth it. Since I can do the ride by myself without any hassle, the only reason to make an official event is if other people are eager to participate. Seeking some feedback on this forum seemed like a polite way of seeking constructive input.

I would humbly submit to you that the organizer of such a sanctioned KTR will need commitment, time, money and thick skin.  

You are absolutely right correct on all points. Thanks for the calluses!

If you are serious but question the support from the crowd that frequents this forum perhaps you might 1st get ‘official’ pre-approval’ of your SPECIFIC race plan .  Then bring this pre approved race plan to this forum for a market test/review.

That's what I'm doing: seeking feedback, approval, and constructive input. I'm sorry that I've not been specific enough for you to grasp all of the details, so I'll try again: I am considering starting a legal KTR, which would differ from the historical style as little as possible--with the notable exception of riders not having to worry about being chased down and fined by the BLM. Achieving legal status may have other effects on the format, many of which I've already mentioned, but would likely include an entry fee (for the required insurance policy), a minor re-route near Fruita, a cap on the number of racers, etc. I'm NOT positioning this as a money-making venture with hype and marketing, but simply as way to legally race Koko in style that closely parallels other non-commercial ultra-endurance races. If this isn't specific enough for you, please feel free to ask detailed questions that will help me further clarify stuff that I may have inadvertently omitted.

Personally I think a sanctioned race that closely mimicked the informal KTR’s would be well received but that’s all hypothetical till someone actually gets formal pre-approval of a specific plan.

I'll take that as encouragement and endorsement of the concept. Thanks!

Hi Toby, I have been trying to prod you a bit to look deep inside at your motives and desires and then either cut bait or fish.

Marshall, I think that I've proven to anyone who actually knows me, which unfortunately does not yet include you yet, that I'm honest, straightforward, and that I mean and do what I say. I don't have any subversive, murky, or dangerous motives. I am simply excited about the possibility of racing the KTR without being chased by guys with trucks, badges, and guns. I'm thinking that it would be pretty cool if someone made this possible--and rather than sit on my butt and wait for someone else to do it, I am trying to decide if I should do it. I've admired and benefited from the contributions of others (Stefan, in particular, for establishing the CTR), and I thinking that it would be nice to give something back to the community.

While the tone of this thread has improved radically over time, I really hope that this is the last time that I need to defend my character, motives, etc. Aside from one occasion where I threw a virtual fireball at Dave (which we've both moved past), I've never been anything other than transparent, respectful, and fair on this forum and in my dealings with everyone here who I've had the opportunity to meet. If you, or anyone else, still feels the inexplicable need question my character, I welcome you to do so in person over a beer or two.

[Marshal]

ahh two ships passing in the dark

no real 'slag' intended , sorry to offend

if you do decide to make a go at a sactionded KTR you have my best wishes for full successs

[Done]

ahh two ships passing in the dark

no real 'slag' intended , sorry to offend

if you do decide to make a go at a sactionded KTR you have my best wishes for full successs

Apology accepted, thanks Marshall! The first beer (root or regular) is on me.

[DaveC]

FWIW, I think the space exists for a revived, public KTR.  I think you'd find a lot of people willing to pay a $30 fee for the privilege of racing as a community (which is the major appeal anyway).  Have an official start, a sign in sheet at the finish, and reserve space at an establishment the next day for brunch, chatting, and an "official" presentation of finishing times. 

If anything, I'm impressed with the low number quoted for insurance.  Even presuming 100 riders that is far less than the figures I unearthed in research I did on the subject back in 2007.

I also like the idea of allowing anyone to step into the community and do the race.  The insular, in the know approach rubs me the wrong way, if for no other reason than I'm an untalented rider with middling dedication who just happened to get into the scene at the right time, when races ran wild and free online and no one had gotten busted (yet).

The KTR has also beaten the shit out of me on two occasions.  So obviously, I'd like to do it again.

[gbach]

Man o' man, all this talk about racing the KT gets me thinking.... full moon in may in the desert.... climbing up to the pavement watching riders meet vehicles and getting packs...  I, for one, got so pissed off that I vowed never to do a "race" there again, I'll do it on my own thankyouverymuch. 

[Done]

Man o' man, all this talk about racing the KT gets me thinking.... full moon in may in the desert.... climbing up to the pavement watching riders meet vehicles and getting packs...  I, for one, got so pissed off that I vowed never to do a "race" there again, I'll do it on my own thankyouverymuch. 

No doubt about it, cheaters suck. Honestly, I feel sort of sorry for anyone who cheats--it would be terrible to have such little self-worth that appearances matter more than reality. When a guy cheated during last year's CTR, he got what he deserved in the end, and the race retained its credibility--and those who played by the rules retained their integrity. Not that I don't understand your frustration and anger, I just figure that there's no way in hell that I'm going to let some cheater ruin my day--they just aren't worth it!

[protijy]

FWIW, I think the space exists for a revived, public KTR.  I think you'd find a lot of people willing to pay a $30 fee for the privilege of racing as a community (which is the major appeal anyway).  Have an official start, a sign in sheet at the finish, and reserve space at an establishment the next day for brunch, chatting, and an "official" presentation of finishing times. 

Hell for $100 (the avg going rate for an 1 day ultramarathon race) add in a couple of water stops and I think you'll have a whole lot more then 100 people try and sign up!   

[Done]

Hell for $100 (the avg going rate for an 1 day ultramarathon race) add in a couple of water stops and I think you'll have a whole lot more then 100 people try and sign up!   

Nope, no water stops in the proposed format. The goal would be to retain the self-supported spirit of ultra racing.

[protijy]

I could live with that!  any way its done I'd really like to do a KTR

[Done]

I could live with that!  any way its done I'd really like to do a KTR

Cool, thanks for the support.

I'm getting more and more excited about this myself. I've decided to pursue a legal KTR for 2012. I'm not looking forward to the paperwork and bureaucratic hassle that this will entail, but I hope that it'll be fun and worthwhile in the end. More info to follow...

[protijy]

can't wait to sign up!

[CubeMonkey]

Cool, thanks for the support.

I'm getting more and more excited about this myself. I've decided to pursue a legal KTR for 2012. I'm not looking forward to the paperwork and bureaucratic hassle that this will entail, but I hope that it'll be fun and worthwhile in the end. More info to follow...

That's awesome, man!  I've been wondering if that race would ever come back (publicly), as it shouldn't have to be a completely underground affair, only for the privileged inner circle in the know.  I'm glad to hear that the BLM obstacles sound to be rather small, too; that's very encouraging.  I'm thinking of designing/promoting an unsupported race here on the Front Range that is pretty much entirely in national forest, so I look forward to hearing how your experience goes.

[Done]

Thanks Cube. I just finished through-riding Koko last weekend in preparation for 2012. Big fun!

The Forest Service is very different from the BLM. For that matter, every land-use agency has a fair bit of local variety and latitude, so no single approach is really "best." I'd recommend chatting to some people off-line to see what their experiences have been in your area.