CTR #3 Route Poll

[bearcreek]

I am a CTF volunteer that makes maps and helps produce guidebooks. Let me preface my remarks by saying that the CTF does not endorse any competitive events on the trail.  I am only posting this as an interested individual and my remarks are in no way official or represenative of the CTF.

I have always wondered why any mountain biker would go around the Ten Mile Range on a paved bike path roadie style instead of over the top.  Lots of people day ride that segment out of Breck and Frisco.  It compares in terms of difficulty to the segment west of Copper Mountain and it's only half as long.  I would like to see any mention of this detour  removed from the next edition of the guidebook.  Any through ride on the CT should be on the CT as much as possible.   

As far as the Coney Summit route goes - the existing detour over Cinnamon Pass is 50 miles long from where the La Garita detour ends at HWY 149.  Silverton is at mile 44.  If you should decide to do the Coney route it is 8.9 miles on HWY 149 south to Spring Creek Pass, 33.1 miles from Spring Creek to Stony Pass via the trail, and 11.7 miles on to Silverton via a screaming descent.  That is 54.7 miles from the Hwy 149 / La Garita turnoff, including 33.1 miles of trail. The Cataract Ridge portion is spectacular, but much of it is cairn to cairn and little of it is rideable.  I would suggest that riders stay on the Pole Creek Trail (which is almost totally rideable) to where it hits the road to Stony Pass then over Stony to Silverton.  If you go that way, the distance from the Hwy 149 / La Garita turnoff to Silverton is about 56.1 miles, 24.2 miles of which is singletrack. 

Doing the Spring Creek - Coney Summit route would definately take a little longer longer but it is one of the most spectacular parts of the CT that is open to bikes.  I highly recommend it       

There is a new atlas style book of color maps and gps information available for the CT that includes all of the bike detours.  There also will be a new Databook published in mid summer. (It will not include the detours)  The current 7th Edition Revised (make sure it says revised) guidebook is 100% up to date for this year.  Go to www.coloradotrail.org and spend some bucks to get the latest and greatest. Waypoints files in Garmin, Magellan, and GPX formats may be purchased at a nominal cost from my website, www.bearcreeksurvey.com.  These files include the bike detour waypoints.

[Stefan_G]

I have always wondered why any mountain biker would go around the Ten Mile Range on a paved bike path roadie style instead of over the top. ...  Any through ride on the CT should be on the CT as much as possible.   

Now that's a darn good point.  We are *Mountain Bikers* after all.  This segment will definitely be a part of this year's CTR.

As far as the Coney Summit route goes - the existing detour over Cinnamon Pass is 50 miles long from where the La Garita detour ends at HWY 149.  Silverton is at mile 44.  If you should decide to do the Coney route it is 8.9 miles on HWY 149 south to Spring Creek Pass, 33.1 miles from Spring Creek to Stony Pass via the trail, and 11.7 miles on to Silverton via a screaming descent.  That is 54.7 miles from the Hwy 149 / La Garita turnoff, including 33.1 miles of trail. The Cataract Ridge portion is spectacular, but much of it is cairn to cairn and little of it is rideable.  I would suggest that riders stay on the Pole Creek Trail (which is almost totally rideable) to where it hits the road to Stony Pass then over Stony to Silverton.  If you go that way, the distance from the Hwy 149 / La Garita turnoff to Silverton is about 56.1 miles, 24.2 miles of which is singletrack. 

Thanks for putting some numbers out there.  I'd also mention that sticking to the trail probably adds 4k (or more) elevation gain than simply going over Cinnamon Pass.  Maybe it is a bit preliminary to add the Cataract Ridge reroute this year, but after my experience descending the Pole Creek piece of trail in 2006, I keep thinking to myself the that Cataract Ridge reroute might actually be a better alternative.  The Pole Creek drainage was muddy and marshy with several creek crossings, and despite an elevation loss of 1000+ feet, I had to hike a lot of it.  If forced to hike, I'd prefer to hike high-alpine rocky tundra terrain than muddy, marshy grass.  Do you (or anyone else) know if it has gotten better in the last few years, or is that piece of trail just falling by the wayside with the new reroute?

I have tunnel-vision right now (from the upcoming AZT-300), but I am considering Mark's suggestion of using Hwy-285 instead of Tarryall if we are to add more of the actual CT later on.  It makes sense and the *only* qualm I have with that is losing the 6 miles of CT from FS-133 to Kenosha Pass.  Those are nice miles, but they are out of the way if riding the Hwy.  Maybe an out-and-back... (?)  Such a pity we can't simply do the short hike through the Lost Creek Wilderness. 

-Stefan

[bearcreek]

If anything, Pole creek Trail has gotten worse not better.  There have been several who have taken a bike across the new segment so it is by no means impossible.  There is actually quite a bit that can be ridden.  A few Silverton riders do Minnie Gulch to Stony and home regularly.  The tough part is from Cataract Lake (mile 5.7) to a point just before Cuba gulch (mile 9.0).  The rest is a mixed bag of riding and walking.   IMHO, Cataract Ridge is the most spectacular part of the entire CT. 

[Marshal]

but I am considering Mark's suggestion of using Hwy-285 instead of Tarryall if we are to add more of the actual CT later on.  It makes sense and the *only* qualm I have with that is losing the 6 miles of CT from FS-133 to Kenosha Pass.  Those are nice miles, but they are out of the way if riding the Hwy.  Maybe an out-and-back... (?)  Such a pity we can't simply do the short hike through the Lost Creek Wilderness. 

-Stefan

HWY 285 would be a good thing imo
Baliey would make a nice resupply stop for a cold drink and then you would be back on single track much sooner than Tarryall.  Anyway its about 27 miles of dirt road/pave vs about 70 miles of dirt road/pave for just 6 miles of ST

[timroz]

While I agree that 75 miles of dirt road is not very fun, I think this might be a bad idea.

If we use 285 it's about 55 miles to Kenosha Pass trailhead.  If I take a range of 7 to 10 MPH (considering it's 6 miles on the waterton road and about 20 on pave that seems reasonable) we end up at the Kenosha Pass trailhead at 11am to 2pm on a Sunday in late summer on a very popular hiking trail close to Denver.  Even if my speed estimate is way off, we're on that trail too early on Sunday.

If we leave it as is it's 105 miles to the same point.  Probably 12 or 13 hours?

Check out the vid about 1/3 of the way into this MTBR thread.  This is taken in early September so it's probably during peak aspen viewing season, but it would suck to run into that type of crowd.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=449045&highlight=kenosha+pass

Tim

[Marshal]

Well there ‘might’ be a bunch of vehicles parked at the Kenosha TH parking area but that would not really affect me one way or the other. 

Anyway if I am figuring it right, the CT guide book shows 41 miles to the end of segment 3 (to FS road 560), my mapping program shows about 26-27 miles from the 560 TH down to Bailey and up to Kenosha pass.  So about 68 miles total.  Some of us poky 5mph riders will be doing very well just to reach the pass by full dark on the 1st day.  My main concern would be more about 285 traffic in the early evening/dark that a crowd of cars at the TH.  That said, I would rather deal with 285 traffic than the fairly boring & long Tarryall detour. 

But at the end of the day it’s all small potatoes, just pick a route, any route, wind me up and away I go……………

[riverfever]

As I've said before, I'll show regardless. However, I also like the idea of ditching the Taryall detour and taking 285. It sucks to miss that ST but it's only 6 miles and if we throw in the other sections it'll make it worth it. I actually ran into quite a few people at Kenosha this last time but it wasn't an issue at all. That burn area on the Taryall detour does gargle bawls.

[Pivvay]

I must be one of the few who doesn't hate Taryall. I'm not saying I liked it but I mean I barely know what it looks like as I rode it all in the dark. There was some up, some down, some water, a bivy and more riding in the dark

285 isn't bad either at off peak times, I've ridden that section before.

[riverfever]

Yeah but you're a wierdo. 

[timroz]

Last year the start was at noon.  On Monday.  That means you all got to Kenosha Pass on Tuesday.  We start at 6am on Sunday morning, and will get to Kenosha Sunday afternoon if we take 285.

I'd rather not deal with singletrack crowded with hikers, but that's just my opinion, man.

I'm done whining now.

[thisguyruns]

ive never attempted the CTR or any of the trail for that matter, but when I do it will not matter what course you all set out. I will be riding as much of the trail as possible, no matter where the stops are or how hard it is. It isnt about time, its about finishing. Technically this isnt a race it is a bunch of people attempting the trail at the same time. There isnt anyone checking to see if anyone is cheating, its all based on you being truthful. So I say be true to the trail and be true to yourself and ride/hike the open parts of the trail. Yall are gonna change it to incorporate the other segments eventually why not just do it now. How many times are you going to complete the current trail before you decide that you arent challenging yourself anymore. It seems to me that the people who have completed the CTR are already voting in favor of making it harder because they want to push themselves. If you are a rookie you should want to do the unabridged version, you are looking to do a difficult ride in the first place so what does it matter if it is a little harder. Pack more, train harder, and suck it up. Think about being a "Mountain" biker if you want easy trails stay at home and ride the single track that is easy and doesnt challenge you, buy a road bike if you want to ride boring and mundane road rides, but if you want to truly challenge your mind, body, and soul take the trail head on.

[ETURK]

Assuming there is a vote then I would agree for 285 as well.
Regarding the original route change discussion; sounds like its such a new section that it can only be hikeable not ridable. Bummer but whatever I am in. Will someone please settle the route discussion. I like to plan, adapt and move on.

[wookieone]

When drove down and up 285 I thought it looked like a bad place to ride up, narrow, winding, cars and 18 wheelers going super fast, it seemed very Un-CT to me. I am all for more trail, but does that really mean we need to add more pavement too? Nothing is perfect, but 285 seems scary to me. I voted for harder but I am happy with how it is, I would be happy hike a biking all that lower out there stuff, coney's, etc, but man the weather is Crazy up on that ridge and as stated very far from help/food/bailout, I am for what ever happens to be the course, even 285, I just don't like it, peace Jefe

[noahdimit]

please keeps it real !
p.s. ruber side down

[Pivvay]

285 really depends on when you hit it. Off peak hours are not that bad (I've done it a couple times) but I can see being unhappy during peak car hours.

I didn't really think Tarryall was *that* bad, esp if we do it in the dark like most will and the singletrack that it does add is pretty nice with a nice creek to fill up at and some good trail.

[dwj]

ok my vote is to leave the taryall detour and add the ten mile range. before riding the teryall detour i thought it was going to totally suck but now that i've ridden it a couple of times i actually enjoy it and find it quite relaxing like nice cup of tea on sunday night. but i'm in no matter what the final route ends up being. i'll always vote for less hiking, but hiking singletrack above tree line is a pretty good way to go. i've been running and hiking enough this winter to push my bike all the way to durango, hopefully...

[Pivvay]

Haha that's good training. Screw the biking part, I hiked several 14ers and slept up high quite a bit before the race last year. Other than not having h-a-b shoes, I was ready for all the walking.

[Stefan_G]

A "nice cup of tea on sunday night" is an interesting metaphor for the Tarryall Detour.  Of course, you may end up having to drink a gallon of tea, cold, in one sitting....  Actually, the current start time of 6am on Sunday would put riders on US-285 or the Tarryall from Noonish onward.

[dwj]

A "nice cup of tea on sunday night" is an interesting metaphor for the Tarryall Detour.  Of course, you may end up having to drink a gallon of tea, cold, in one sitting....  Actually, the current start time of 6am on Sunday would put riders on US-285 or the Tarryall from Noonish onward.

iced tea on a sunday afternoon then. most of the changes have dealt with making the route harder and staying true to adventure in the mountains, why make it easier and subject everyone to a greater threat of being run over by an automobile.

[Stefan_G]

most of the changes have dealt with making the route harder and staying true to adventure in the mountains, why make it easier and subject everyone to a greater threat of being run over by an automobile.

Mainly because the idea is to ride the CT, not miles and miles of detours...  The Tarryall Detour does connect nicely with the last 6 miles of ST going down to Kenosha Pass, but 80 miles of road vs. 25 miles of road is a big trade-off for just a few miles of ST.