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  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #20 on: January 28, 2015, 07:24:34 PM
Cadence Lee

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« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2015, 07:24:34 PM »

Nice answer!!!! Thanks!!!!!
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  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #21 on: January 28, 2015, 07:46:46 PM
THE LONG RANGER

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« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2015, 07:46:46 PM »

Oh man, that Google Earth tour sure brought some memories back. It's a wonderful route, let's be honest. ,

I think I'd like to give this a go again - even though my first go was pretty miserable after the second day - my shoes completely fell apart, my fork blew a seal, and I got exercise-induced asthma - which is probably the worst thing I've ever experienced when riding a bike. Sigh.

I kinda hate to admit it, but I'm not sure a super fast time is what I really want. It would be somewhat of a crazy ride, though, to do it without stopping for supplies. Pack all your food from the start, to see you from Durango to Denver. On one hand, this isn't so different from the reality that there are not so many resup points on the route directly, and also when I did run out of food (that asthma sure ruined my timing on things!), dropping down from Lake City was a pretty draining experience. Ugh!

If you could pack for this super-intelligently (pack calories like people doing human-powered challenges to Antarctica!), I think it would work. I almost think the Durango start would be better than the Denver start, as you'd be heavier, when there's more Hike a Bike (I'm a pretty strong hiker these days!), and much more lighter and nimble, when the route gets super-ridable. Goodness, how long would that take - 10 days? The odds of completing this, I think, would be pretty low, which almost gives me more stoke to try this! (ie: probably after a few days, your bike's gonna break anyways!) 
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  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #22 on: January 28, 2015, 09:47:05 PM
Jilleo


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« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2015, 09:47:05 PM »

An unsupported CT trip on a bike is a cool idea. Isn't the current (fastpacker) unsupported record in the 10-day range? 10 days 19 hours I believe?

Given a 5,000-calorie-a-day allotment at ~2,000 calories a pound (assuming you're still eating carbs), I suppose that's 25-30 pounds of food at the start. Could be worse!
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  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #23 on: January 28, 2015, 11:22:20 PM
Majcolo


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« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2015, 11:22:20 PM »

This is an interesting strat to consider.

Just for fun:

There are about 3200 calories in a pound of butter, and about 1600 calories in a pound of sugar. A pound of each per day, plus some protein powder and electrolytes and you're at maybe 12 pounds of food for a 5 day finish?

What's better than butter dipped in sugar?
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  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #24 on: January 29, 2015, 12:01:46 AM
Jilleo


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« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2015, 12:01:46 AM »

Peanut butter has 2,672 calories per pound  similar to your butter/sugar mix, but you actually get quite a lot of protein. I think it's the perfect endurance food but you're only getting about 80 grams of carbohydrates with that. Just 160 grams carbs in a day might be a bit rough for any kind of high-intensity efforts without feeling bonky. Although some Antarctic skiers go with mostly fat  they also usually spend lots of time getting better fat-adapted prior to their expeditions. If you're used to burning carbs, a frame bag full of butter wouldn't work out so well in practice.

It is a fun puzzle to try to solve. Smiley
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  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #25 on: January 29, 2015, 07:28:18 AM
Yagi


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« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2015, 07:28:18 AM »

Perfect application for a load of cookie dough?
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  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #26 on: January 29, 2015, 08:35:39 AM
Majcolo


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« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2015, 08:35:39 AM »

You'd need to combine the peanut butter with whole grain bread, pasta, rice, wheat, corn, almonds, sesame seeds or some animal protein to get all the essential amino acids. There are all kinds of potential performance-, health-, and happiness-robbing complications that can arise from a deficiency in one or more EAA's during an event like this, as well as longer recovery times. These become more noticeable when you're an older feller like me. The longer the event, the more it pays to be attentive to this.

A 50/50 peanut/almond butter mix is a VERY interesting solution.

I'm working on getting fat-adapted for other health reasons; going to have to experiment with this.

Edit: Link to Shawn Forry's blog about his FKT attempt: http://www.shawnforry.com/Margin_Walker...A_Hikers_Chronicles/Blog/Entries/2012/9/5_10D19H5M.html

Looks like he started out with 37 pounds of food.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 08:45:53 AM by Majcolo » Logged

  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #27 on: January 29, 2015, 09:20:13 AM
THE LONG RANGER

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« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2015, 09:20:13 AM »

An unsupported CT trip on a bike is a cool idea. Isn't the current (fastpacker) unsupported record in the 10-day range? 10 days 19 hours I believe?

Given a 5,000-calorie-a-day allotment at ~2,000 calories a pound (assuming you're still eating carbs), I suppose that's 25-30 pounds of food at the start. Could be worse!

Yeah, looks like it's: Shawn Forry @ 10d19h5m. Pretty interesting to think that the bike would actually make things slower, as it's ~25lbs (or more!) you have to bring with you, given how much of the terrain isn't rideable. The hiking sections would be probably slower than without the bike, and it's anyone's guess if you would make up that time on easier terrain/downhills.
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  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #28 on: January 29, 2015, 09:32:59 AM
joeydurango


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« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2015, 09:32:59 AM »

I think an unsupported trip would be super-doable in 7-8 days, provided the research was dialed.  In 2013 I took too much food from the get-go and still had a solid day's worth left at BV.  And (knocks furiously on all wood objects in sight) I've never had anything worse than a flat tire on the CT, so mechanicals don't HAVE to be a factor.  (Probably just jinxed myself for '15!)
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  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #29 on: January 29, 2015, 10:41:33 AM
mikepro


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« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2015, 10:41:33 AM »

Ok... I have a Garmin 800 that I was hoping to use for navigation (along with the CTR data book as well).  Does anyone have any experience using a Garmin 800? 

I use a Garmin Edge 510 for my daily/training rides, and just yesterday I was fussing with the touch screen (again) and had the thought that I wouldn't want to be having touch screen issues on something like the CTR: tired, at night, possibly raining, sleep-deprived, and the screen won't register my finger touch/slide (especially out at the corners of the screen)?  And I might have to take my glove(s) off to do anything on screen?  From the looks of it, the 800 is similar touch-screen design.  Something to think about.
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  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #30 on: January 29, 2015, 11:34:43 AM
Cadence Lee

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« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2015, 11:34:43 AM »

I have a recipe that uses coconut oil (lard consistency) and peanut butter with chia and flax seeds with a milk protein powder.  I roll it into balls and coat with coconut, milk powder and/or crushed nuts. You could add in powdered coffee and any alternative protein powders as desired. Tastes yummy, easy to swallow and super calorie dense (about 400 cal/ball).  Still playing with it, but should have an ideal mix of protein and fatty acids to help with recovery. Carbs and lytes as well
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  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #31 on: January 29, 2015, 11:40:20 AM
THE LONG RANGER

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« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2015, 11:40:20 AM »

Def. give it a shot. I think something homemade, that's high in fat is the way to go. For me, chia seeds are no good, as they kind of destroy my stomach. Coconut oil would be a good choice - some sort of fat that doesn't go rancid would be the key.
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  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #32 on: January 29, 2015, 11:56:30 AM
Cadence Lee

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« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2015, 11:56:30 AM »

Exactly!! The shelf life is about 2 weeks if you use powdered milk.  You could use more flaxseed instead of chia. I made my first batch without chia and they were just fine
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  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #33 on: January 29, 2015, 02:38:44 PM
Majcolo


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« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2015, 02:38:44 PM »

Coconut oil has about 3900 calories per pound, that's perfect. Great suggestion. Recipe time!

Hmmm...wonder if a a cookie-style snack to prevent melting would work.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 02:45:56 PM by Majcolo » Logged

  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #34 on: January 29, 2015, 03:55:25 PM
Jilleo


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« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2015, 03:55:25 PM »

Yeah, looks like it's: Shawn Forry @ 10d19h5m. Pretty interesting to think that the bike would actually make things slower, as it's ~25lbs (or more!) you have to bring with you, given how much of the terrain isn't rideable. The hiking sections would be probably slower than without the bike, and it's anyone's guess if you would make up that time on easier terrain/downhills.

Not that I'm all that familiar with the Colorado Trail, but I'd agree that it would take a fairly strong person who also had proficient technical skills to manage a heavily loaded bike on technical terrain, to move faster than a hiker on the singletrack portions. There are serious disadvantages to ~65 pounds of bike and supplies versus 30 or 35 pounds in a small pack for an unsupported fastpacker who runs the downhills. Only if there were long enough road sections could much time be made up on a bike. May be one of the reasons why unsupported FKTs have yet to catch on in the bikepacking world. Maybe you could be a trendsetter. Smiley
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  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #35 on: January 29, 2015, 05:53:03 PM
THE LONG RANGER

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« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2015, 05:53:03 PM »



Coconut oil has about 3900 calories per pound, that's perfect. Great suggestion. Recipe time!
Hmmm...wonder if a a cookie-style snack to prevent melting would work.

I made some killer peanut butter cookies once that were made with coconut oil, peanut butter, and a little bit rolled oats to bind it all together (amongst other things). The coconut oil is pretty hard at room temp, so you're good to go. Frickin' delicious. I'd suggest whatever you do, make it into a bar/brownie type of deal, and just have individually wrapped sheets of the stuff. Perhaps have another binder of like dates blended up into a paste. You could make that whole thing vegan, and (almost) raw, if you'd wanna go that direction.

I'd also suggest Justin's version of Nutella which is ridiculously yummy. Maybe some stuff in powdered form for variety. Shouldn't go too crazy for at least a coupla days on that!

Only if there were long enough road sections could much time be made up on a bike. May be one of the reasons why unsupported FKTs have yet to catch on in the bikepacking world. Maybe you could be a trendsetter. Smiley


Eh, with the right poking and prodding Wink It would be a little weird to put in an average time that was slower than a thru-hiker though. The utility of a bike would certainly be in question Smiley Shawn was averaging around ~45 miles/day. That seems, uh, doable w/a bike.

The La Garita Wilderness detour is ~55 miles, Leadville detour is around ~21 miles, Silverton is ~17 miles and Lost Creek is something like 75 miles (a whopper!), all of which would be easy-peasy (ok, Silverton would be pretty ugh!) with a big load. Everything else - all that singletrack would be pretty painful/unfun if you're loaded down too much, I'm imagining. Just doing Kennebec Pass to Molas Pass - which is as good as it gets in the CTR, would be less than ideal if you had too much weight on your bike.

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  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #36 on: January 29, 2015, 08:17:21 PM
Majcolo


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« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2015, 08:17:21 PM »

This unsupported bikepacking FKT idea has grabbed me - I usually have to go heavy on food anyway because I have Celiac and a casein allergy, which can make resupply in out of the way places pretty challenging. Why not just go all in and go unsupported? I can't compete with guys 20 years younger than me that don't need to sleep anyway!  nono

I made some killer peanut butter cookies once that were made with coconut oil, peanut butter, and a little bit rolled oats to bind it all together (amongst other things). The coconut oil is pretty hard at room temp, so you're good to go. Frickin' delicious. I'd suggest whatever you do, make it into a bar/brownie type of deal, and just have individually wrapped sheets of the stuff. Perhaps have another binder of like dates blended up into a paste. You could make that whole thing vegan, and (almost) raw, if you'd wanna go that direction.

I'd also suggest Justin's version of Nutella which is ridiculously yummy. Maybe some stuff in powdered form for variety. Shouldn't go too crazy for at least a coupla days on that!

Thanks for the ideas! I'm thinking of a batch of bars with dates, one with coffee, and maybe one with sea salt. I already do most of my trail miles on salted mixed nuts and dates; these homemade bars will just be lighter, more compact, and easier to eat on the move.

I'm a big fan of Hammer Gel and Perpetuem Solids too, but there's a volume tradeoff there. Have to look at both calories per pound and calories per square inch since bag space will be at a premium.
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  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #37 on: January 30, 2015, 06:11:01 PM
Rooster Cogburn


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« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2015, 06:11:01 PM »

Another day of freezing fog and rotten snow.  And so as to avoid the outdoors I made a batch of high density food-like gunk, building upon the above ideas.  I started with a goal of making something that tasted good, travels well, was easy to digest, had a high calorie density, and about 10 percent of the calories were from proteins and 40 percent from fats.  This is what I ended up with:
                                            proportion (by weight)
Corn syrup                               0.28
Coconut oil                               0.11
Peanut butter (peanuts only)   0.13
Dried black currants               0.17
Whey protein                         0.07
Garbonzo bean flour               0.05
Oat bran                               0.19
Salt and cinnamon

I mixed the ingredients by hand and warmed the mess in the microwave for a few minutes.  Then I pressed it into a cookie sheet lined with wax paper, stuck it in the freezer for an hour, and then cut into rectangles.  Each rectangle or bar was 2 by 5 inches and 1 inch thick -- so 10 cubic inches, which fits nicely in one of those snack-size Ziplock bags.

The detailed calculations of calories per ingredient divided into fat, carbo, and protein, killed another hour and I discovered I had gotten close to my protein (11%) and fat (38%) calorie content goals.  Each bar was 725 calories (550 calories are in a Big Mac).  And it tasted good.  Their consistency at room temperature was firm and seemed appropriate for getting it in the mouth while riding a bike without creating a mess.

And so here is the bottom line;  A multi-day race while burning 6000 calories per day would require eating 8.3 of these bars, which is 2.6 pounds per day.  A days worth would take up 83 cubic inches of space.  Could I eat this stuff for ten days straight?  Only if desperate.  But for a two-day race to avoid an off-route resupply -- possibly.

I compared my bars to Cliff bars -- the calorie density was 5.1 cal/g for mine and 3.4 cal/g for the Cliff bar.  I ended up with 4.4 calories per penny of ingredients (bought at a regular grocery store).  The Cliff bar yields only 1.9 calories per penny.

So, now it is dark and another reason to put off riding until tomorrow. 

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  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #38 on: January 30, 2015, 09:33:28 PM
Majcolo


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« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2015, 09:33:28 PM »

That's good work, Rooster! Love the math. I'll post up my own experiment soon.
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  Topic Name: CTR 2015 Planning Reply #39 on: February 01, 2015, 12:33:48 PM
jehsohn

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« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2015, 12:33:48 PM »

Hey Cadence,
 

 what is your recipe you are talking about? I am interested.
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