Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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on: November 11, 2015, 11:52:44 AM
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bsavery
Posts: 17
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« on: November 11, 2015, 11:52:44 AM » |
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Breaking off the discussion from the main Colorado Trail Race thread (purists rejoice) Floating the idea of doing the CT in a similar format to the Coconino stage race (as a separate race, maybe starting at the same time). Stages end in "Safe" areas where one can camp overnight and your time will stop or keep going if you want. Still self-supported. And yes I'm willing to help organize this. Copying post from the other thread: I wanted to throw out there is the idea of doing a "self supported stage race" similar to what the coconino 250 did this year: http://www.bikepacking.net/forum/ultra-racing/coco-250/40/What all the fast guys do on minimal sleep is incredible but for me, I'd like to race but get decent sleep, and maybe even have an occasional buddy to talk about the ride at the end of the day. Doing the BCBR this year, while not self supported was a great experience. Anyone else interested in the idea? Downsides could be trail congestion and organizing it, but I think with a 7-8 day stage schedule you could still push most riders who aren't going for the record. Post 2 Idea for 8 stages: Start Day 1 Goose Creek Campground 54.8 Day 2 Kenosha Pass Campground 57.9 Day 3 Copper 52.6 Day 4 Buena Vista hugh meadows Campground 80.7 Day 5 Luder Creek Campground 86 Day 6 outside lake city 69 Day 7 Outside Silverton - little molas campground 50 Day 8 Durango 72.4 523.4
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« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 03:20:04 PM by bsavery »
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Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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Reply #1 on: November 11, 2015, 11:53:12 AM
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bsavery
Posts: 17
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« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2015, 11:53:12 AM » |
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If you're interested post here and not number of days you think would be good.
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Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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Reply #2 on: November 12, 2015, 08:36:06 PM
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joeydurango
Posts: 599
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« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2015, 08:36:06 PM » |
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One mild concern I'll bring up is that if run concurrently with the CTR, the additional riders the stage event may draw could easily push us over the 74-person FS regulation limit for non-permitted events. The CTR has had fewer people the last couple years, but a few years back we were definitely pushing that limit. Perhaps it would make sense to run this event a week before or after...
Edited to add: Also, unless riders doing this are really wicked fit, the eight-day plan is still going to have quite a bit of night riding. I'd imagine most interested parties on that schedule, self-supported, would be riding 12-15 hours a day, maybe even up to 18-20 on some days, to make those camp spots.
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« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 08:39:27 PM by joeydurango »
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Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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Reply #3 on: November 13, 2015, 06:35:23 AM
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sherpaxc
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 577
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« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2015, 06:35:23 AM » |
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I'd agree with Joey. I think an 8 day plan is going to involve either super early mornings or super late nights. I could be wrong, but I'd imagine a 10 day route would be more conducive to having that tour/camping feel. You still ride all day, but you will also have the luxury of enjoying some of the towns on resupply, and sleeping at night. Just my thoughts.
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Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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Reply #4 on: November 13, 2015, 08:06:34 AM
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AZTtripper
Moderator
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 1724
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« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2015, 08:06:34 AM » |
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A Coco style route for Colorado would be great to see. I would think it has to be possible to come up with 250-300 miles in a loop. The fact that it is a loop is part of what makes the Coco work so well. I don't know CO as well but it seems like there should be a way to connect the CT with the CDT and or the TD and some other back roads and trails to make a loop.
While the whole CT is a great goal 8-10 days is more then most people are going to be able to pull off. A shorter course that many can knock out in 2+ days would make a perfect 4 day outing for many more. A long weekend is much easier to put together.
Just thinking out loud. Tim
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Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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Reply #5 on: November 19, 2015, 12:36:38 PM
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geekonabike
Location: RedNeck Alps (White Mtns, AZ)
Posts: 207
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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2015, 12:36:38 PM » |
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I'll add a ten day vote & thumbs up Joey's different start date. Maybe even 2 or 3 weeks after.
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Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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Reply #6 on: November 20, 2015, 08:00:20 AM
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hikeabike
Posts: 38
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« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2015, 08:00:20 AM » |
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I would be in for 10 days this summer if it started and completed sometime between July 10 and Aug 15.
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Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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Reply #7 on: November 23, 2015, 07:43:03 AM
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dream4est
Posts: 594
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« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2015, 07:43:03 AM » |
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I do not think anyone interested in this format would be able to finish in 7 days 20 hours. Anyone with that ability level would simply race. My best is 8:08:50 and I know this format would slow me down as the mileage the first 2 days is too low and the mileage on last day too far.
edit- if one was good enough to do a 7:20 with sleep, that really means he/she is a six day and change pace racer. No six day pace racer is going to stage race.
Also, my 8:08:50 included a 100 and a 95 mile day. I dont see how the stage race splits would work for anyone. The splits listed above have no real data crunched to arrive at those spots. Bsavery is just throwing them out there. I know all the splits well.
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« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 07:51:40 AM by dream4est »
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Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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Reply #8 on: November 23, 2015, 07:59:47 AM
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bsavery
Posts: 17
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« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2015, 07:59:47 AM » |
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10 Days would be fine too. I just posted the previous breakdown as a first thought.
My worry is if you make it too many days you're just doing a group tour. You'd want it to be hard enough days that people are actually racing. 7-10 seems to be the sweetspot for that. If you go to something like 14 days it wouldn't be so much a "race" experience.
I think the people interested in this (myself included) would be interested for the experience more than anything and also seeing your fellow racers more often and getting to socialize at the end of the day at the campsite. That is really the big difference over the normal CTR more so than the number of days?
So it sounds like 10 days is what people would be interested in? Some point in July-August. Full moon is not as big an issue as for the CTR
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Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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Reply #9 on: November 23, 2015, 08:28:53 AM
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dream4est
Posts: 594
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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2015, 08:28:53 AM » |
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If you want to socialize after stage racing do the Coco 250 or the Breck Epic and leave the CTR the hell alone. Or just tour. Racing is not about socializing.
Anyone who wants to start a new event needs to have a better plan than turning an existing event into a stage race.
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Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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Reply #10 on: November 23, 2015, 09:22:57 AM
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bsavery
Posts: 17
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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2015, 09:22:57 AM » |
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If you want to socialize after stage racing do the Coco 250 or the Breck Epic and leave the CTR the hell alone. Or just tour. Racing is not about socializing.
Anyone who wants to start a new event needs to have a better plan than turning an existing event into a stage race.
If you're not interested there's no need to participate in this discussion. I missed the part where there could be only one event on the CT. Regarding splits, I threw that proposal out as an "idea" based on my recollection from touring the CT and looking at the previous race spot tracks. If you want to throw out your split data that would be great.
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Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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Reply #11 on: November 23, 2015, 10:00:23 AM
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dream4est
Posts: 594
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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2015, 10:00:23 AM » |
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Okay you asked let me break down how it would go for the stage race concept.
First lets look at your above scenario. Some riders who could handle day 1 and 2 (both easy) would fail on day 3 miserably. All riders would need food on Hwy 9 and that takes time. They would not get over ten mile, leaving a long ride to just catch up the next morning and my guess is they wouldnt even make leadville that night. The stage race would be over as the whole field would fragment.
So how about a longer scenario, like 9-10 days? Well it is already hard to make it over ten mile on night 3 so stop 3 is going to be like right above hwy 9. Ok so then the next day has to be like to Camp Hale. Then say Buena on night 5. Then it gets tricky. You have to shorten this day to Hwy 50. Not all racers will make it up Fooses that night. So then you have to make night 7 to only tank seven creek, as some ppl would not make it across sargents mesa at night.
What I am trying to show is that there are several sections that are so slow and hard they would fragment the pack if the splits are wrong. It continues the whole way to Durango.
edit- IMO it will be too hard or too easy and most will abandon the stage race format as it will either hold them back or be too hard to match. Very few will be able to hold the pace. The CT changes speed a lot for the average rider.
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« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 10:29:47 AM by dream4est »
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Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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Reply #12 on: November 23, 2015, 12:53:07 PM
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mtnbound
Posts: 258
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« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2015, 12:53:07 PM » |
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I think it is a good idea to have a stage race. It is definitely not the CTR (and should not be confused with the CTR) and it would appeal to different people who would like a different type of race. So, it should start at least a week off from the CTR to differentiate it and to spread out the riders between the two races (which will also help reduce potential hiker confrontations).
As mentioned above several times, 10 days is a good pace to do the CT while primarily day riding (though, obviously, some slower riders will still have some long days that will go into the night). I think 8 or even 9 days of day riding is just too short. I have a feeling that the majority of riders doing a stage race are those who would do the CTR in 7-11 days and, if you read race reports/blogs, those in the 8-11 days often sleep anywhere from 5-8 hours/night and primarily ride in the daytime with just a day or two of late night riding as needed. Mark is right on that, due to the varied nature of the CT, riders with different strengths will cause problems with trying to draft a good schedule for each day. Some people will power on thru the road sections, others will really suffer on the climbs/HABs, others will have problems with the higher altitudes or mechanicals, etc. With a race so long and so varied, the group will fracture on different parts. Of course, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted. This is another reason for making it 10 days so it will give a greater buffer for the group, so some riders may finish a stage at 5pm while others finish at 11pm or even a straggler limping in occasionally at 1am (but that should be expected in any stage race).
I don't have much to offer on where each of the 10 stages should be, but I would definitely make the first couple of days longer since there is lots of road mileage on the first wilderness detour. For instance, just as a suggestion, on Day 1, perhaps the mileage should be around 80-90 miles (say near Tarryall Reservoir) and maybe have the second day end up at the eastern base of 10 Mile and third day end near Camp Hale or by Tennessee Pass and Day 4 end by Avalanche TH. I would also try to work it out so Segments 22 and 23 down to Silverton is also one full day - having too many riders camp out somewhere in the middle of those segments will cause many problems (lack of water/strain on trail from group camping/danger to due to being exposed for too long, etc.) so it is best to do in one looong day (i.e. start early for that one!). Finally, I don't think going from Silverton to Durango in one day is doable for most - better to break it into two days (with the finish on the final day somewhere in the middle of the day for most).
Another suggestion is to look at Trackleaders 2014 for riders that finished in the 8-11 day time frame and look at how their days ended up, which should give one an idea of how to break up the days since I would think these are the type of riders a stage race would appeal to (though I could be wrong!). Anyway, these riders generally seem to ride, on average, 10-14 hrs/day while sleeping the evening hours (i.e. which I think is the target you are wanting for a stage race).
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« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 01:15:44 PM by mtnbound »
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Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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Reply #13 on: November 23, 2015, 05:20:15 PM
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bsavery
Posts: 17
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« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2015, 05:20:15 PM » |
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Good points... I'll take a whack at reworking the days. Another suggestion is to look at Trackleaders 2014 for riders that finished in the 8-11 day time frame and look at how their days ended up, which should give one an idea of how to break up the days since I would think these are the type of riders a stage race would appeal to (though I could be wrong!). Anyway, these riders generally seem to ride, on average, 10-14 hrs/day while sleeping the evening hours (i.e. which I think is the target you are wanting for a stage race).
Great suggestion. I had the same thought when looking at it initially. My initial idea was an easier first day as prologue/warm up hence the short first couple days. Also thought that squeezing it into 8 days would let the "1 week off work + weekend" crowd get in, i.e Saturday - Saturday + a travel day. So based on the above suggestions: I would agree the first couple days are probably a bit short but again, it would be bad to blow people out the first day. Looking at it think somewhere around copper feels right for night 3. But totally agree the long days at the end are too much. If you took the above schedule, camped above copper on day 3, and split the silverton-durango into 2 days, and add an extra day in the middle to split it up a bit shorter that would be 11 days. Something like dream4est mentioned... Day 1 Goose Creek Campground 54.8 Day 2 Kenosha Pass Campground 57.9 Day 3 Above Copper - 52.6 Day 4 Leadvilleish 56 Day 5 Avalanche TH 53 Day 6 ? Day 7 ? Day 8 Spring Creek Pass 151.33 Day 9 Outside Silverton - little molas campground 50 Day 10 Between Silverton and durango 45ish Day 11 Durango 28ish So you'd have 11 days, the last day being shorter and still the easier first couple days. Or you could make the first two days a bit harder....
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Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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Reply #14 on: November 23, 2015, 05:46:50 PM
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dream4est
Posts: 594
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« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2015, 05:46:50 PM » |
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Well that is better. How about: 1. Spruce Grove CG or somewhere near intersection of tarryall road and matakut road. 2. Jefferson Creek CG area 3. Miners creek TH parking spot above peaks trail 4. Leadville 5. Mt princeton 6. Tank Seven camp spot 7. Slumgullion CG 8. Silverton. 9. FS 550 (start of section 27) 10. d-town in about 12 hrs or so
That would be a 9:12 or so. Doable by most. Good splits. Some nights in towns.
edit- would be less logistics for renting campground spots, and it avoids the private Cg's (kenosha and little molas).
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« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 05:51:58 PM by dream4est »
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Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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Reply #15 on: November 24, 2015, 10:17:18 AM
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bsavery
Posts: 17
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« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2015, 10:17:18 AM » |
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That would be a 9:12 or so. Doable by most. Good splits. Some nights in towns.
edit- would be less logistics for renting campground spots, and it avoids the private Cg's (kenosha and little molas).
Good thoughts. I updated with some approx distances and elevations, although it comes out a few K short summed up. 1. Spruce Grove CG 80 80 10000 2. Jefferson Creek CG area 41 121 3000 3. Miners creek TH parking spot above peaks trail 29 150 5000 4. Leadville 45 195 9000 5. Mt princeton 75 270 5000 6. Tank Seven camp spot 45 315 8000 7. Slumgullion CG 85 400 9500 8. Silverton. 53 453 6500 9. FS 550 (start of section 27) 38 491 7000 10. d-town in about 12 hrs or so 39 532 4000 Thoughts.... personally I'd want day 1 a bit shorter and day 2 a bit longer. Jefferson Creek CG is a good call, don't remember the miners creek TH well. But generally I think that's much better!
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Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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Reply #16 on: November 24, 2015, 11:15:01 AM
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dream4est
Posts: 594
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« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2015, 11:15:01 AM » |
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Well since riders would be stopping at the Stagestop on day 2 for a resupply, it could work. Plus some folks may try to double up and make miners creek th on night 2.
On the Matakut road there is camping about 1-2 miles up from Tarryall road in the trees on west side of road. That could shorten day 1 up.
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Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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Reply #17 on: November 25, 2015, 08:03:27 AM
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bsavery
Posts: 17
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« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2015, 08:03:27 AM » |
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Actually refiguring the distances, I think Spruce Grove would be more like 75 in...
thinking about it overnight, I think this schedule would work well for alot of people, but with a small tweak. Maybe it was just me, but Jefferson creek -> Copper mountain wasn't the worst day by far in my recollection. If you moved the day 3 to camping at copper (not sure of the camping options other than the side of the trail) you can resupply there, and makes the elevation on day 4 a bit easier. But curious to hear other thoughts on the matter.
BTW I'm sort of spitballing the elevation amounts and they're probably all a bit low but should at least be proportional.
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Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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Reply #18 on: November 25, 2015, 08:54:54 AM
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Iowagriz
Posts: 248
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« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2015, 08:54:54 AM » |
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Reading with interest, but only about the concept as I likely will never toe the Colorado Trail start line.
But, throwing out a slightly different idea.
What if you had mandatory, group overnights every 2nd night? Some people might push harder the first night and create more time that second afternoon/evening for better rest. Others might go halfway and stop and create even days. It would allow some flexibility in differing styles, but still allow the safety and community off every other night. I don't know the route, but maybe that makes your stopping points easier.
Interesting concept overall.
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Topic Name: Colorado Trail Stage Race
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Reply #19 on: December 02, 2015, 02:27:31 PM
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geekonabike
Location: RedNeck Alps (White Mtns, AZ)
Posts: 207
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« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2015, 02:27:31 PM » |
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What if you had mandatory, group overnights every 2nd night? Some people might push harder the first night and create more time that second afternoon/evening for better rest. Others might go halfway and stop and create even days. It would allow some flexibility in differing styles, but still allow the safety and community off every other night. I don't know the route, but maybe that makes your stopping points easier.
I'm not sure if this is the plan, but in the coco250 the stops aren't 'Mandatory'. They are are camp spots where your Elapsed Time is paused. So theoretically you could zoom through a couple of stops the take a zero day or two at your own whim.
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