Jsliacan - You make some great points.

I had written a long reply here, as I agree with you and would love to see the 2022 "*" spur off a summer of healthy discussions about what rules "work" and what ones don't (for all ultra races, not specifically AZTR). But I deleted the reply. There just doesn't seem to be the appetite to discuss the rules here or maybe just at this time. I don't even know if you did prove that the rule doesn't impact the results, if you'd get some people to agree to change them.

This thread has been an interesting read, much like the bikepacking.com article. Thank you all for sharing your perspectives on all the rules.

I'll be riding my triple crown outside of the official events/grand departs.

Thanks for writing phatmike.

I've done a couple of events, none in the US.
I think this is disputable, given how uneven the emphasis is over many troubling topics. Some don't make it into the rules, some do. The rules are clearly not evolving (except for the odd addition of the visitation/media rule), so we can't just wave it away as being a "process". Also I think what you mean is that the race rules just try to create a level playing field on the day. Because sponsorship, past doping, wealth, religion, citizenship, etc. all affect one's chances to even be at the start line. But I accept that that's what the rules try to do. Sure.
As you point out later in your post, policing the rules is mostly based on people's integrity (self policing). So we could easily have a rule that is hard to check. Caches are basically impossible to check, yet the rule exists. And finally, if people thought doping mattered, they could at least have a rule to auto-DQ convicted dopers coming from other sports (e.g. pro peloton, XC skiing, etc.), since their integrity - the cornerstone of bikepack racing -- cannot be relied on. This info is usually publicly available, yet no such rule exists.
You'd think, right? Yet at TD 2019 Josh Ibbett had a personal film crew, rode at Lael's pace, and doesn't have any mention of this next to his finishing time in any results I could find. Clearly there are *some* problems with applying this rule even if it should be easy to uphold. So I am not sure easy/difficult to police should bear so much weight when designing the rules.
That's not a fair suggestion though. If one event already exists, you won't create another one which is a copy of the first except for the rules. It would split the community, dilute the racing scene, confuse the public, and it would just be bad taste in general. It is much more sensible to work towards some middle ground about the 1 event that already exists and grow the enthusiasm towards it.
If the rules were balanced in their reach, emphasis, coverage, and application, then yes. This way it, at the very least, looks bad. I am also not understanding how a respectful media crew infringes on the integrity of the event. I don't think it has been explained anywhere (or I failed to find it), and it is not obvious.

I like the idea of evolving rules too.

I'm interested in what you end up with here. I'm near Auburn, and want to find some good routes in Tahoe National Forest. So many trails show up on google, but then some turn out to be roads, some look overgrown, some dead end.

Hopefully this summer I'll explore more in there. It would be great to have a route in Tahoe Nat forest that camps at some lakes.

"The level of ambiguity of the communication both before and after is... well you can draw your own conclusion. "

Totally agree. PR nightmare unfolding in the small bikepacking racing community.

If I went to do the AZTR course tomorrow, I'd consider the FKT to be Lael's. If I lined up for the AZTR event, then I wouldn't consider her's the FKT.

John
Sorry you had to play the villain, hopefully the vid will be great maybe fully supported will be the next big thing in thru biking. Someone could easily get fkt for multi sport trail run/bike the full AZT with support, run the wilderness bike when legal, AFAIK it's never been done so all you have to do is be first to set the record.

That does sound like a pretty exciting event to follow. A fast cyclist, but slower runner, vs a slower cyclist who's a faster runner.

I really like racing/events where there are lead changes.

[R]

Are there not two separate things, AZTR800 FKT (which has lots of rules, two of which Lael broke), and then also AZT800 FKT (see there is no "R"), which has no/few official rules but does follow the AZTR course? She broke the rules and doesn't get the AZTR FKT, but seems that she definitely set the course record.

It'd be like if I went and ran the New York Marathon race course, and maybe with some advantages like a friend riding beside me to motivate me, and I set a course record. It would be wrong to say I ran the fastest ever New York Marathon, but it would be correct to say that I have the fastest known time on the New York marathon course?

Regardless, I am looking forward to seeing the video/film or whatever is made from this.

I like the grass roots nature of bikepacking races, but hope that they grow a little more to the point that there is neutral media at the bigger events so that I can get a glimpse into the race in more detail than an article written at the finish line. AZTR, Colorado Trail Race, Silk Road, Divide, Atlas Mountain one, heck, I could consume a dozen highlights films a year on this stuff!

Did you end up finding anything?

There is the mountain bike route the "California Sierra Bikepacking Race" did, which goes Auburn to Tahoe, around Tahoe and back. It looks like you'd want a mtb, not gravel bike.

But there's also just doing Tahoe into Tahoe National Forest and down to Auburn, or other roads/trails in the forest. The Soda Springs to Forrest Hill route is mapped out and done a bit, but other routes in there would take you some google earth/strava/garmin heat map type work to plan.

There's a number of lakes in the forest, and some have campsites. So you could disappear into the forest for a while if you can carry food, as there's water at various sources.

I have a road bike, and a fully rigid 29er (2.25/2.60 tires).

I keep seeing Lael Wilcox on an Epic hardtail with drop bars for routes like Conti divide, and it looks pretty interesting.

1) For those that have done a drop bar conversion (so you have a flat bar bike that is the right size for you, and convert it to drop bars), what drove you to do it?
2) If buying a xc mtb frame to install flat bars on, would you buy a size down or the same size you'd have bought for flat bars?

Thanks

https://i.postimg.cc/4dFJ7fQ6/lael-wilcox-2021-tour-divide-6-1536x1024.jpg

Thanks for adding the details. I appreciate it. Thanks.

Specialized website lists the s-works as having a 506mm axle to crown when uncompressed.

So if 100mm fork and 20% sag, then you'd want 486mm to maintain OEM geometry when seated on the bike ... right?

I switched out my rockhopper 29 in the same way, but went $100 Chinese fork. I went for 502mm (I think), which was a mistake. I should have gotten a 485-490mm fork, but I didn't know better. The front end just doesn't feel quite right, but it still acceptable enough for me not to want to replace it. I'm also missing fork bosses for anything cage mounts (as I'm not prepared to hose clamp cages onto hollow carbon fork legs).

Bikepacking has a list of all the forks, and you could search that pretty quickly for a 485-495mm fork with bosses. I think they're generally more than I expected, but then the Enve fork was way cheaper than I expected.

Thanks. I ended up getting the Thermarest regular length, and it did feel fine, but length wise it was only just long enough (and by going longer, it also gets wider, which wouldn't hurt). I only read after I ordered it, that "anyone close to 6' should just get the long". When I returned it to swap for long, they just gave me a refund (Moosejaw), and it's not back to full price.

It was pretty interesting though with it looped to the sleeping pad, it seems totally doable. I'll wait on the next 20% off sale (and combine with active junky cash back). I'd like to go small local brand, but it's $100 cheaper (with sales+rebates) for ThermaRest, and they use the nikwax treated 900 or 950 down. Some similar priced small brand ones are using less lofty down.

Thanks

Expanding to include ZPacks and Katabiatic, do they have Black Friday sales?

I've got a few sleeping bag and quilt projects I want to do, but am also considering just grabbing an Enlightened Equipment 20F quilt, but as I have a couple of bags already, I can wait for a sale if there's maybe one in November.

Do they do Black Friday sales? Any other way to get one at a lower price?

Thanks.

This sounds interesting, I'll follow and see what happens. I unfortunately have not ridden this area.

Caltopo is worth a look for finding routes though, although nothing will beat some local knowledge from some forum members.

I've got a few sleeping bags, from a summer down one to a winter down one. They're both a little bulky, and heavier than modern ones (they're from about 2003 and 2005, always stored correctly etc, just I figure cheaper down). Anyways, my main complaint is that I find they're just a little narrow, and I get caught up when I roll around.

I'm looking for a approximately mid to high 20's F comfort level bag, that is pretty light and compact for bike packing, but also one that works with people who are more in the 180-200 lb range. I'm pretty cheap, so ideally some brand that I can get 20% off at REI, or some other discount.

Any suggestions?

Another option I see, is just to go to a quilt. I'm still wanting to make my own quilt, but that project is on the back burner for a while.

Thanks

I haven't had a chance to order one yet, but did grab a used original MSR Hubba for cheap. It needs re-seam sealing, but apparently was still waterproof last time it was used.

I'll grab a CloudUp3 next, and sell some older tents (not so much to get much money, but to just not have more tents than I'll need).

What pushed me into the MSR, was 1) it just came up at the right price, and 2) I do have a special place in my heart for used gear and minimizing my carbon foot print. (I have built my bikepacking bike out of almost all used parts too). I'm trying to find time to pick up some more used things this week that also need some TLC, rather than buying new.

It does seem with NatureHike Cloud Ups and the Lanshan tents (which use trekking poles), we are in a time of ultralight shelters for really reasonable money. Totally, if you're doing a major trip that's costing thousands, you should "invest" in Big Agnes, but for the couple of 1-2 night trips a year, the Aliexpress Lanshan/NatureHikes seem so ideal.

Once I get the Cloud Up3, I'll make sure to post a detailed review to help out others.

Thanks.

I'm seeing used down sleeping bags on ebay for okay money. Some seem crazy expensive for used bags, some seem reasonable. I'm wondering how practical it is to buy one, wash the down with Nikwax down wash (or maybe just woolite to save money?), then deconstruct it, and re-sew it into a quilt (closed in foot box, then opens up) to make a physically smaller bag which weighs less. So I'm re-using the down and the fabric. Zip and some fabric would come off and be put into the spares for future projects pile.

I'd be doing this for a fun project, and to save money, and to reduce my carbon footprint. If I could work out a way to do it effectively, I'd want to make a few for my kids (3 and 6) ... maybe get one bag and convert it into two kids quilts.

1) Is this just going to be a feathery mess?
2) I've heard down can lose it's loft, particularly if stored rolled up. Maybe a loft check at home with marked jar and scales before building
3) We donated our sewing machine last year, so I would have to go buy a replacement at goodwill or similar.

I watched this free the last two nights on Amazon Prime, and it is totally worth a watch.

I just checked, and it looks like it costs now, which is a bit weird, as I'm sure it was free the last few days.

I think I'll jump on the 2 person one. I just can't justify something more expensive.

And thinking about this setup for ultra light good weather.