It's undoubtedly a grey area in regards to the rules.

I suppose I would accept so long as I had done everything in my power to fix my bike myself and had brought tools and supplies in the expectation that I would be riding by myself. If I was negligent in buying more tubes in town after previously suffering multiple flats or decided I could do the race with only 1 spare tube and couple patches (I run tubeless usually), then I'd say it would be a relegating offense. If I had been prepared then the fact you had a tube, were willing to give it to me and came across me would just be considered lucky, hence trail magic I suppose.

I guess I wouldn't have a problem being relegated for this either though. I can see the other side like Kurt says.

EDIT: I never used to share food either. I like it though because it makes it more fun. I have no expectation that other racers will give me anything but if we're sitting down a water source together an someone offers a bite of something different it's nice not to have to turn it down. The "point" of the rule I always thought was to encourage everyone to pack and bring supplies as if they were riding totally alone.

Yea the "plan" word is the killer there. If I suffered 8 flats and used all my spare tubes and patches and you gave me another tube, I wouldn't have planned on that but it's definitely sharing of gear (and luck that you were there and willing to help).

On the meeting of family thing:
I think it's definitely slower but definitely mental/emotional assistance which we can also get over the phone. I did it in the TD this year but have never really needed it in shorter events. Three weeks was a long time for me. While Marni didn't leapfrog me down the course (even though maybe we would have liked that, haha), she did see me in Kremmling late at night. When she arrived I was already sleeping and I probably only saw here for an hour total other than sleeping next to her. The next day I saw her briefly while I ate lunch in Breck on our joint way to Salida. In Salida we were able to catch a very late dinner together, spend the night in a hotel and catch breakfast while waiting for Absolute to open to repair and prepare my bike for the last ~1000 miles. She laughed as I hauled a box of stuff by bike to send home, the very place she was going, because we both knew it against the rules for me to just give her the box. At the very end, I saw her in Silver City, only because she needed a hotel room to sleep in for the night before picking me up at the border and I needed some food and a nap before the final push. Dinner of pizza hut pasta and cold drinks (all of which I hauled by bike) was our mini celebration knowing that I was going to finish this darn thing. I actually had to wait around at Walmart for a little while until she got there but I knew I had it in the bag (finally...) and used the time to call my family who I hadn't really spoken too all race.

I mention all this only because it's allowed in the current rules and we were both extremely careful not to do anything to break them. I wouldn't let her get me water or food, I wouldn't let her pay for anything, I made all the hotel reservations in person, I wouldn't accept a massage or even let her hold my bike while I lubed the chain. Physically I made sure to do everything as if she was not there at all.  Others have stated that such meetings are emotional support. I can't disagree.

If meetings were banned from the start I could probably do without though that's gotten easier as I've got more experience in these races.They're certain to slow a racer down. I know Matt wanted to potentially discuss this for the future so that's fine with me. I also know it's been done in the past for the GDR with no DQ. The question is just if people are unhappy with the current rules or if they need to be tightened down somehow. I know for the Grand Loop or AZT 300, having any sort of support person "out there" was certainly frowned upon. Thoughts?

We don't get much Hagalofs stuff in the USA. Never tried one.

The Zpacks pack worked fine. It's super light but sort of flimsy. You could run a bladder in it if you want. I custom ordered mine smaller than normal and it still came out too big really but that was hard to gauge since I didn't quite know how he cut them. They're not super durable but I didn't baby mine too much either and it survived okay. It shows some wear in the back panel and bottom.

I would probably do it that way on the TD again since I could ditch the pack in lot of sections (esp with course knowledge from doing it once) but it was only a little over 2oz to bring along for the sections where I wanted to pack bulky food, extra water or whatever. For the CTR I might just carry my Black Diamond Flash 9L pack from the start but I haven't thought about it in depth yet. You need plenty of volume capacity for Coney/Cataract to haul enough chow.

The DIAD is pretty similar to the Triumph. Downsides to the Triumph anarack are no full zip and no pit zips. It's not much lighter than my old, slightly modded DIAD (6.1 oz) but quite a bit lighter than the newst DIAD's. Not experience with the Mica.

lol. Independent thought to the same conclusion?

I throw my rain knickers on in town if i'm really worried about attracting unfavorable attention in spandex.

Appel would be trail magic as would thru hikers. You cannot control those. You can control digging your phone out and calling for details or using a smartphone web browser.

Ah gottcha. I think of a SPOT stalker as a random dude watching the race that I don't know that comes out to spectate and possibly hand out food/water/beta whatever.

I'm totally fine with a rule banning the gathering of trackleader data outside towns.

Sure okay, I see that. Then is the problem saying "No track leaders intel can be gathered outside of towns" just that it puts a burden on outsiders not to spill the beans? Maybe that's the risk you run using a cellular device outside a town? Certainly Marni knows that if she sees me in a town, she can't bring me a pie. She can just as easily know not to talk about the race unless I ask first, meaning I'm in an acceptable location.

It doesn't cover something like a SPOT stalker hanging out on the road saying "person X is only 1 hour ahead" but that seems a separate issue to me than accessing trackleaders on a 3G phone in the backcountry.

Sure there could I agree. But what if there isn't? Then it's a phone call out that isn't outside support.

What about business calls? Nothing to do with the race, might be necessary for life outside a race if you're a doctor or small business owner.

I've never made them and doubt I ever would but can foresee that others might.

I think it's whatever you like riding more. FS is fun and lots of people prefer them.

I prefer a hardtail for the simplicity and I didn't feel like my old FS (Trek Fuel) was any great advantage. I liked the bike but as far as energy savings it wasn't immediately apparent. I haven't tried any of the new hot FS bikes. Owen (CTR record holder) was on a hardtail again this year. Then again I'm a rigid fork nutcase so what do I know, haha.

I think any frame material is fine if properly built. I've been on steel bikes for a couple years because that's what cheap frames are made of. What few long rides I've been able to take the Salsa Selma on so far, I have not noticed increased fatigue from the scandium frame. I'll admit, no 9+ hour rides or multi days on it yet though.

My arguments were solely directed at maintaining SPOT tracking, which I like, and maintaining a strict sense of "self support", perhaps stricter than we've had lately. I'm okay with just saying you can't get SPOT data remotely, regardless of cell phone rules but that seems to put a burden on race outsiders which is not ideal. Then again, my wife is well aware of the rules and knows what is allowed and not allowed and really she's the only person I ever call baring a mechanical failure and a call to a bike shop or something.

I wouldn't object to no cell use between towns so long as I can carry a SPOT. My loved ones need to know that I'm alright and that I have some potential to signal for help should a serious emergency occur. Beyond that I have no problems with "town only" neutral areas for all phone use. Messing around with extra weight, batteries, chargers, finding reception and paying for "better" cell service has less appeal to me than resetting the tracking on my SPOT once a day. I suppose I pay the price of time spent finding a phone in town but i'm usually patronizing a store or restaurant which if they don't have a pay phone have been willing to allow me to use a land line or cellphone and my calling card. I really don't care if people yak on their cell phone whenever during the race either but can concede that it is another level of support to accept or reject.

You can get a text message back though can't you? Just really slow 2 way comm? Or are you thinking about it from the "hey person at home, i'm at the cool water pump taking a nap" with no reply from the other end perspective? If so then a SPOT basically does the same thing IMO.

It would be pretty clear in my mind to say "no cellular tech between towns". It'd be on your honor but so is everything else. That would encompass crappy pay as you go phones like I have, computers with a data card, iPhones, blackberry's, whatever. Leave it in your pack unless you're in a town.

Isn't part of SPOT's beauty to be for both spectators and the racers the fact that it IS truly only one way? The SPOT isn't the problem, it's finding out what the SPOT said that's the problem. And if you're against emotional support between towns, then banning cells would solve both issues. I mean what else could you accomplish by calling the outside world that couldn't then be considered support under that interpretation.

I think SPOT stalking would be best dealt with separately.

What other ways? I mean I consider 3G on an iPhone still to be using a cell phone. I'd also consider texting to be using a cell phone. Plus texts get through when calls don't making communication easier. Or are you saying texts can only go out, not in?

DH,
I only maintain that the cell phone issue is relevant because of your objection to "on trail" mojo calling and SPOT data gathering as outside assistance. If you can't call, then is there an issue still? Once you're in town, all is fair? That may be something I can personally agree with regardless of where the rules go. I mean would could play the what does "in town" game mean but that's minor.

The GDR still exists, though it appears to be currently unpopular. Nevertheless I felt I had to go without a phone to make a point this past year. I'm sure in the future that distinction will be less.

Dialing up some moral mojo and beta on the trail - well the latter is new, at least the precision of that intel.

While I'm not sure I feel so strongly as you about the SPOT info since it's not required and you can just not carry or turn them off, I don't really have a problem with the position distilled down to the above statement. I'm only against the cell phone ban in that it seems crazy hypocritical in towns. I don't carry one so using it out on the trail isn't something I've really worried about.

I often carry a picture and notes from Marni for mojo out on the trail. Is that prearranged outside assistance? Okay that's a joke, I don't really expect anyone to say yes.

Group racing is great - so long as we call it group racing.  I take issue with riders seeking support (intel, moral) between towns.

DH,
But honestly why the "between towns" proviso?

You'll have a good time. The CTR is way harder mile per mile than the TD but 3 weeks is tougher than 1 no matter how you cut it. I may see you all out on the CTR again this year. We'll see what the future holds.