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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website on: February 17, 2012, 07:26:41 PM
EP


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« on: February 17, 2012, 07:26:41 PM »

Ok, I have a couple questions.  First, the following is quoted from the TD website

"Shipping/receiving supplies (to the course): In the name of equal opportunity for international riders and to minimize the TD 'footprint', challengers are encouraged to race as reliant as possible on commercial services along the route. However, in advance of a start, a competitor may cache food or equipment resupply at US Post Offices only, care of general delivery[/i]" 

Why is shipping to a hotel not allowed?  Some of these places do this all the time for CDT hikers.  Hotels and outfitters do this all the time on the Appalachian Trail.  It's the 'commercial services' choice if they want to do this or not.  They can even charge a fee if they like.  So why is it 'illegal'?  and What does if have to do with the 'footprint' of the TD? 

For that matter, who made the TD 'rules'?  Is there some sort of 'board' that makes these decisions?  For the record, I would be happy to help out the 'rule makers'. 

I'm all for self-supported racing.  I'm all for policing yourself.  But people that have specific dietary restrictions (e.g. Gluten free) would have a terrible time finding enough quality food without shipping it to themselves.  Limiting resupply to only the PO's along the way is so limiting.  Many of the places have severely limited hours.  At least hotels are available all (or most) hours.  So again, I ask who made these rules?  From reading the FAQ's on the TD website it looks like others have issues with this rule. 

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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website Reply #1 on: February 17, 2012, 07:36:10 PM
EP


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« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2012, 07:36:10 PM »

[i]Generally speaking, sure, commercial addresses on route are equally available to all challengers, however, pre-race caching of supplies to just any commercial address (ex: diner or motel) is an 'unintended use' of that commercial service. Unintended use (abuse) over time will strain the system designed to serve hundreds of GDMBR thru-riders annually. Therefore shipping to commercial addresses is only allowed in the event of an emergency (once the race has started). Past examples of emergency shipping: toasted derailleur, destroyed wheel/tire, broken pedal, seized BB, lost glove, hat, armwarmer, leg transplant, etc.[/i]

So I found this 'answer' in the FAQ on the TD website.

'Unintended use' (abuse) over time will strain the system...SERIOUSLY?  If the commercial service doesn't mind how is this 'abuse'? 
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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website Reply #2 on: February 18, 2012, 12:15:19 AM
BigPoppa


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« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2012, 12:15:19 AM »

The general idea behind the rules of the Tour Divide is that the race should be as self supported as possible and that every racer should have equal footing.

The rule in question is designed to keep each racer on the same level as far as support. It sounds crazy but once you are out there, you will see the multitude of opportunities for the people "in the know" to cache food and/or supplies at places that are technically commercial that others might not know about.

Also, I know that it sounds silly that the commercial system on the divide could be overtaxed but it is a very real concern. Fifty to eighty cyclists coming through a bed and breakfast over the course of two days, when that B and B normally sees 50-80 customers in a year, really does over tax the system. It also lends itself to a pretty entitled spirit.

It's kinda hard to understand from reading about the race on the internet but it really is a different world out there. Things are simple. You ride. You sleep. You eat. You repeat without showering for weeks on end. The solitude, good hearted people, and simple nature of the small out-cropping civilizations are something that we should fight to preserve.

To address your question about who makes the rules... the rules were designed by Matthew Lee and based off of the rules from the original Great Divide Mountain Bike Race. Believe it or not, the TD rules are far more lenient than the GDMBR rules.

People race the divide with all sorts of dietary restrictions; vegan, diabetics, etc. Yes, it is more challenging for those racers but hey, that's part of the game. You can always challenge the route yourself, not under the TD, if you don't agree with the rules. That would even more in line with the self supported spirit.

As a caveat, I'm not related to the running of the Tour Divide. I'm just a veteran of the race and what I've said here is just my opinion. 
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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website Reply #3 on: February 18, 2012, 03:36:46 AM
EP


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« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2012, 03:36:46 AM »

Thanks for the response Big Poppa.

Here's an email response from Three Bears Motel in Lincoln, MT.


Yes I accept and will hold packages. There is no minimum stay requirement and there is availability around those dates. When it gets closer just let me know. Thank you for inquiring.
 
Sincerely,
Louanne Minear
Three Bears Motel


Mind you I'm not arguing with you Big Poppa, but still the rule in question- but here's a way of looking at it and I'll refer to some of your answer.

The race is self supported, but anyone that is doing it knows where the route leads.  A little research starting with the maps from ACA and then google and anyone can be 'in the know' as they need to be to get by.  I fully agree with the rule that there should be no private 'outside assistance', i.e. friends/family along the way, meeting up with someone in a support vehicle, etc...

As far as the overtaxing goes with the number of cyclists: Again, I need to point to the AT.  From March 1st to the end of April anywhere from 10 to 50 people start hiking the Appalachian Trail EVERYDAY with the intent of going the whole way.  Not to mention many others who are out for the weekend or a section hike.  Yes, these businesses are 'taxed' but they are also happy to have the business.  And if they don't like it, they stop doing it.  Which is fine and their choice. Back to 'over taxing' or abuse, IF 50 TD racers all sent packages to a small PO along the way that would clearly 'over tax' that PO which would not be used to the high volume.  And probably isn't even opened every day. So adding in the option of hotels, motels or other small businesses would help eliminate the danger of overwhelming any one establishment.  Not to mention, that most racers probably would be sending very few packages because they would be happy to eat anything and everything that they could get their hands on at the local convenience store...which by the way could well also be overtaxed.  But if they like to make money, which they do, then they probably are happy to be 'overwhelmed' for a few days. 

Reading over the rules, I can't say I disagree with anything else.  And on one hand, a rule is rule so maybe no one should question it and just live with it.  But I'm fairly certain this is a highly questioned 'rule' that evidently comes from 1 person.  Nothing against Matthew Lee here. I'm sure he has put in countless hours to make this a great race, but that doesn't make him 'right' 100% of the time.  Honestly though, I would have to say that maybe ALL prearranged resupply should be eliminated.  That would definitely keep everything equal.  Mind you, I'm not for that. 
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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website Reply #4 on: February 18, 2012, 05:14:00 AM
BobM


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« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2012, 05:14:00 AM »

Keep in mind also that the GDMBR is a public access route and anyone can race it at any time and use whatever rule set seems like the best fit for them.  That's what John Stamstad did originally.  A bit of history - some racers did not like 2 of the Great Divide Race rules - no cell phones and a start point of Roosville.  Those racers, led by Matthew Lee, founded the Tour Divide.

I doubt that many serious self-supported racers have a problem with the rule in question.  The more stuff you can stash, the less self-supported the race becomes and the more tied-down you become in terms of having to be at a certain place at a certain time.

Bob
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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website Reply #5 on: February 18, 2012, 01:24:07 PM
Cheyou


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« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2012, 01:24:07 PM »

Just a rule .  Guess you were never in the USMC. We got lots of strange rules.

Thom
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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website Reply #6 on: February 18, 2012, 05:41:45 PM
DenisVTT


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« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2012, 05:41:45 PM »

I'm with BobM. To me, the scarcity of places to ship to adds (a bit) to the difficulty of the race, and I see that as a good thing. The dearth of almost everything save for the endless road in front of you is part of why the TD appeals to me.
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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website Reply #7 on: February 19, 2012, 07:22:17 PM
jryter


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« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2012, 07:22:17 PM »

Just a side question. I have type 1 diabetes (Shameless self promotion--i'm also raising $ for research http://www.crowdrise.com/RaceTheTourDivideforDiabetes) and was just curious if anyone has done the race and finished with diabetes. I'd be interested in comparing notes. Also a girl from Crested Butte doing the race this year can't eat wheat and seems to do well in these sorts of things.

You can mail stuff to post offices? Nice!
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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website Reply #8 on: February 19, 2012, 07:41:47 PM
DenisVTT


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« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2012, 07:41:47 PM »

Just a side question. I have type 1 diabetes (Shameless self promotion--i'm also raising $ for research http://www.crowdrise.com/RaceTheTourDivideforDiabetes) and was just curious if anyone has done the race and finished with diabetes. I'd be interested in comparing notes.


Tony Cervati did. He nearly died, but probably not because of his diabetes.

Read this: http://type1rider.blogspot.com/2011/06/statement-from-tony-cervati-statement.html

And his entire blog, particularly the entries in June and July 2011, when he talks about his experience on the TD: http://type1rider.blogspot.com/
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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website Reply #9 on: February 19, 2012, 07:54:18 PM
jryter


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« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2012, 07:54:18 PM »

Yeah he fell off the "bridge of eternal peril" or something. Maybe he'll do it again with better results hopefully... A friend of mine from NZ with type 1 did it a few years ago in a two yr tour.... anyway just curious. As people noted here you are needing lots o' Cals...... So....
Should be a fun ride!
JR
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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website Reply #10 on: February 19, 2012, 11:02:31 PM
phil_rad


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« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2012, 11:02:31 PM »

I'm also a vet of the TDR, even if I only made it to Helena, but from my short experience it is not necessary to send stuff along the route. You can buy everything you need on route. Not in every town but in some of the bigger ones. Sending packages ahead just creates more stress; trying to get to a particular town on time before the PO closes. Just my two cents.

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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website Reply #11 on: February 20, 2012, 06:18:36 AM
EP


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« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2012, 06:18:36 AM »

@Phil- I would agree fully that sending a package can create stress...which is why sending to a business that is open 24 hours a day would eliminate that.  Again, my reason would strictly be for dietary/nutrition concerns.  Many small convenience stores and even grocery stores do not have much in the way of carbs that don't contain wheat. 

So is Matthew Lee still the man as far as making this race happen?  Decision making on reroutes, etc..?

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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website Reply #12 on: February 20, 2012, 06:40:06 AM
DenisVTT


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« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2012, 06:40:06 AM »

@Phil- I would agree fully that sending a package can create stress...which is why sending to a business that is open 24 hours a day would eliminate that.  



Just a word of caution that many motels in small towns on the route (like the ones in Lincoln, MT) are not really open 24 hours a day. You can probably get someone to open some of them for you at 3am, but the likelihood is that you will be waking someone up. Past around 11pm, most of those businesses are sort of closed.

But yes, they're open more than the post office!  thumbsup
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 06:53:25 AM by DenisVTT » Logged

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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website Reply #13 on: February 20, 2012, 08:18:36 AM
phil_rad


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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2012, 08:18:36 AM »

@EP - Rules are rules man, deal with them. Don't think that ML will be changing them. It's makes it tough on you though when you're restricted to a certain diet. I guess if I were you I'd send what I think I'll need in the way of nutrition to various Po's. Hoping that I can make it to the PO before they close. Having to follow a diet makes it tougher for sure but if you're 100% sure you want to do this then you'll be okay. Maybe in some of the bigger towns; Whitefish, Columbia Falls, Helena, Butte, all in MT. Then Rawlings in WY, Steamboat Springs Colorado, Silverthrone, Breckenridge, Salida also in Colorado. I would guess that in those towns you'll be able to find the food that you need. It's in between or in NM where it'll be really challenging for you.

I have no idea who's in charge of the Orga for this years TDR; I'm guessing ML, I'm sure we'll be finding out soon enough. And really what do we need to be organized? Just get yourself to Banff and take off Friday morning at 8 am. It would be nice to have a starter list and spot coverage but it's not really necessary. Just my opinion.


 
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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website Reply #14 on: February 20, 2012, 09:16:44 AM
tubeSSnapper


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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2012, 09:16:44 AM »

When one considers the purse at stake here...the rules are are paramount...ha..ha. This is grassroots DIY racing. Surely if 'many people' want are different race they will create one. The TDR logistics are tough but equal. If you plan right and are fast you can always sleep in a bed and eat hot meals as John Nobile did when he finished in 17 days and change. And if you wan't to use commercial services for support I'm sure FedEx or UPS will deliver whatever you want where-ever you want. Wink
While I've never been on the AT, I suspect it does not have quite the remoteness of the GDMTBR and so our "footprint" is quite apparent. The hospitality of locals is famous...and not to be taken for granted.
A suggestion:
I recall the folks in Atlantic City (anyone who has been there can attest to irony of the name....city) purchased extra food for their little market in anticipation of the TDR riders. I was overjoyed to find real food there in addition to a hot meal. Perhaps you wan't to suggest to them that they stock a few gluten free products for ANYONE to buy. That will be incentive to stay at the head of the pack as well.
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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website Reply #15 on: February 20, 2012, 01:21:23 PM
joeydurango


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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2012, 01:21:23 PM »

At the risk of sounding like a cad... just go out there and race!  If you don't like the rules, don't join the event.  There are plenty of ways to ride from Banff to Mexico without having to follow any rules at all beyond Canada/US law.

If you do race, best of luck out there!  Enjoy it.
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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website Reply #16 on: February 20, 2012, 02:53:45 PM
BobM


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« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2012, 02:53:45 PM »

@Phil- I would agree fully that sending a package can create stress...which is why sending to a business that is open 24 hours a day would eliminate that.  Again, my reason would strictly be for dietary/nutrition concerns.  Many small convenience stores and even grocery stores do not have much in the way of carbs that don't contain wheat.  

So is Matthew Lee still the man as far as making this race happen?  Decision making on reroutes, etc..?



Just a note - in your original post you posted this response from a motel in Lincoln:

"Yes I accept and will hold packages. There is no minimum stay requirement and there is availability around those dates. When it gets closer just let me know. Thank you for inquiring.
 
Sincerely,
Louanne Minear
Three Bears Motel"

So, what are you going to do if you arrive in Lincoln at 2 pm?  Will you really want to get a room for the night?

You might want to try and contact Adrian Stingaciu if you can find him.  He went raw food vegan so he can probably give you some tips on satisfying a restricted diet on the route.  If it were me I guess I would send food packs to EVERY PO on the route and just figure on missing some of them.  I did a little traveling with a celiac friend last summer and he had convenience store eating down to a science - sausages without bun were a staple as were corn chips.

Best of luck!

Bob
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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website Reply #17 on: March 06, 2012, 09:29:34 PM
Doctrike


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« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2012, 09:29:34 PM »

I have done several organized double centuries, some 50K road races, and some underground cyclocross events all without carrying any more food than a few power bars in case of an emergency. I don't ever use food stops if available at event rides or any of there services. The lines slow me down and I never like the food selection. I ride self supported from town to town. The only thing I would consider sending to USPS offices is some spare parts, and batteries if budget allowed.

I can do the STP Bicycle classic each year in between 9-17 hours unsupported with very little training. I usually wait for my riding buddies on first 100 and use that as a warm up to go barn storming the second which I have done in under 4 hours. I don't carry anything more than 1 spare tube, Park multi-tool, zipties, and an emergency patch kit. I use about 3-5 20oz bottles of water and gatorade per 100 miles, I eat at subway at 100 miles and snack on fruit and power bars between. I don't even have a bag or rack on my trike, just 3 water bottle racks, and a small Pedros recycle inner tube seat bag for my tube,tool, and patches.

It is very easy to do self supported rides town to town with a few simple reserves like powerbars and hammer gels. I find that eating a good carb heavy dinner the night before helps me as I don't like to start a ride on a full stomach.

Notice most people don't ride like me and nee more calories more often. I am an anomaly:)
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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website Reply #18 on: March 06, 2012, 11:51:02 PM
sean salach


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« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2012, 11:51:02 PM »

According to the following website, all of the below listed candies are gluten free. EVERY convenience store has candy. If you can't complete the race on candy bars and beef jerky, you've got problems.

http://celiacdisease.about.com/od/glutenfreefoodshopping/a/GFcandies.htm

Baby Ruth
Bit-O-Honey
Butterfinger Bar (original flavor only, NOT giant bar)
Milk Chocolate
Goobers
Nips (including both regular and sugar-free)
Oh Henry!
Raisinets (including Cherry, Cranberry and Dark Chocolate flavors)
Sno-Caps
Wonka Pixy Stix
Laffy Taffy (including Laffy Taffy Rope and Fruitarts Chews)
Wonka Lik-M-Aid Fun Dip
M&M's (all EXCEPT for pretzel-flavored M&M's)
3 Musketeers Bars (all flavors)
Milky Way Midnight Bar
Milky Way Caramel Bar
Dove Chocolate products (all flavors)
Snickers Bars (all flavors)
Munch Nut Bar
Tootsie Rolls
Fruit Rolls
Frooties
Dots
Tropical Dots
Crows
Cella's Milk Chocolate Covered Cherries
Cella's Dark Chocolate Covered Cherries
Junior Mints
Charleston Chew
Junior Caramels
Tootsie Pops
Tootsie Peppermint Pops
Caramel Apple Pops
Fruit Smoothie Pops
Tropical Stormz Pops
Child's Play
Charms Blow Pops
Charms Super Blow Pops
Charms Pops
Zip-A-Dee-Mini Pops
Fluffy Stuff Cotton Candy
Sugar Daddy Pops
Sugar Mama Caramels
Charms Squares
Charms Sour Balls
Charms Candy Carnival
Pops Galore
Andes
Sugar Babies
Smarties
Hershey's Plain Milk Chocolate Kisses
Hershey's Milk Chocolate Bar, only in the 1.55 oz. size
Hershey's Milk Chocolate with Almonds Bar, only in the 1.45 oz. size
Jelly Belly Jelly Beans
Necco Wafers
Mary Janes
Mary Jane Peanut Butter Kisses
Sweethearts Conversation Hearts (available for Valentine's Day only)
Canada Mint & Wintergreen Lozenges
Haviland Thin Mints
Candy Stix
Clark Bars
Skybars
Haviland Peppermint & Wintergreen Patties
Necco Candy Eggs (available at Easter only)
Talking Pumpkins (available at Halloween only)
Squirrel Nut Caramels
Squirrel Nut Zippers
Banana Split
Mint Julep Chews
ULTRAMINTS
Mike and Ike Berry Blast
Mike and Ike Italian Ice
Mike and Ike Jolly Joes
Mike and Ike Lemonade Blends
Mike and Ike Original Fruits
Mike and Ike Redrageous
Mike and Ike Tangy Twister
Mike and Ike Tropical Typhoon
Mike and Ike Zours
Mike and Ike Jelly Beans
Mike and Ike Hot Tamales
Goldenberg's Vintage Peanut Chews
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  Topic Name: Tour Divide Rules and website Reply #19 on: March 07, 2012, 12:08:47 AM
Doctrike


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« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2012, 12:08:47 AM »

I don't even know what gluten is but I do know my mom who has thyroid and diabetic issues can't have it. I eat what I want but have started doing steamed rice and veggies and cutting out all junk food which for me is not very much at all. Got rid of all fast food and greasy foods much better for my tummy. Looks like I can start eating candy bars on rides now though, I must admit sometimes after 20 Powerbars a nice crispy Reese's FastBreak, Wafer Sticks, and Nutrageous bars are very tasty.
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